The Raven MTi2 Thread

[waxman]

IMO this is all on Slate. they did it for Logic and Pro Tools etc. With Logic it's an overlay of just the faders and the pan knobs, no frame around it, you align the Raven mixer with Logic's mixer etc. Funny how this stuff works, thanks for the tip about hiding the faders in DP, didn't think about that.

Then lets hope they will do it for DP. This is NOT a bashing Raven thread. In the 45 days I've had the Raven it's been amazing and helps my workflow and now I can see how much better it could be.

Michael and the other Raven owners I think Matt Dodge from Slate Digital will be watching this thread. So please keep your thoughts and ideas coming and hopefully Slate will get time to do a custom Raven template for DP. (I wish Jim was sticking with it.)

I agree with you Michael this needs to be on Slate to make the Raven changes for dp. For the Raven to be a better experience I would love to see the Raven stay in vertical alignment with DP when banking 24 channels at a time.

Adding automation to the Raven button instead of the current blue INS button would be good. That gets us back the solo/rec/mute/auto section of the DP mixer taking get back some valuable real estate for more inserts and auxes.

The alternative is I am finding I can use the DP buttons to arm record mute solo etc. In that case just having the PAN and fader is fine. However I prefer the larger buttons on the RAVEN. An added pan and automation section (along with the existing solo, rec and mute on the Raven) would allow us to bail on the DP pan knob (which is to small for touch screen) and the s/m/r/a DP section. Those are my ideas. When I mix I am constantly going between the upper mixer section and the faders. Once all the work is done and nothing but fader levels and automation is needed kicking in the big mixer might be cool.

Here are the facts:
Mackie protocol can bank 32 channels. (But 24 is probably better giving some border room on the Raven.) You can see in the pic dp is scaled to do 32 channels on the width of the Raven screen and the Raven is scaled for 24 channels.
Raven channel is 3/4"...
DP channel is 9/16"...
DP mixer can be configured to the user preference.
I'm not sure if different skins change the width on DP.

See Pics. All are using the floating Raven Mixer

Raven Channel is 3/4" (just over)


DP Channel is 9/16"


Raven at 24 channels and DP at 32 Channels


Ruler on screen with Raven


Raven 24 ch an DP 24 ch. (Probably best to have some margin on the side)


Aligned with cinema display

[Michael Canavan]

I'm pretty sure Slate can do a dedicated DP mixer, in the Logic video below You plainly see how Slate accomplished this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAfzdCk5PAE#

So my screen problem is being solved, Slate are letting me keep my current DAW license and the one that will ship with the replacement monitor. In a twist of odd "luck" Live is the other DAW that Slate haven't done an 'internal mixer' overlay for. The rep was pretty stoked about the Live one though, probably in retrospect because it's been out for a while so bugs aren't an issue etc.

[Gravity Jim]

Thanks for that link. It was very helpful in understanding the problems with the DP version of Raven.

I've posted this same question on the Slate board: Why? Why does DP require it's own intercessionary built-from-scratch mixer, and why can't we have the "overlay" approach that clearly works so well in Logic?

So now the question for me is: do I sell the Raven and go forward with DP, which I prefer, or do I make Logic Pro X (which I own) my primary DAW and keep the Raven in a form that really works? Because even if they get all the bugs ironed out of the DP Mixer, it's still going to be half-assed, and you're still going to need the top half of the DP mixer for every mix. And DP is about to release this blockbuster version that's supposed to increase CPU efficiency by incredible leaps... I don't want to make Logic my main DAW just before that happens.

JameyZ answered my question already: he says they can't do the overlay because the DP mixer resizes itself with each insert, but that's not the case here: I have it set to show 5 blank inserts at the top of each channel and the mixer remains the same as I fill those slots. He says, "We can always add things, it will get better." I don't know if hoping for complete functionality in the mixer one day is a great reason to hang on to it.

But disappointment aside, I'm going to wait for the 3.03 official release before deciding whether to live with it, ditch it, or try the Logic profile.

[Michael Canavan]

Gravity Jim, my guess is it's a matter of big dog VS here. Pro Tools and Logic get nice overlays, Live and DP get Ravens mixer. If Slate sells thousands of copies of Raven for DP, then Raven for DP will get attention. Slate and other companies unfortunately tend to spend more time on Pro Tools and Logic than other DAWs because of the perceived audience for their products. On a side note Avid last month played off another huge amount of the Pro Tools team, while DP gets a Windows version and a NextGen PreGen upgrade.

I would guess if paying customers ask, it's possible they deliver. I don't see any reason why they can't DP has the ability to limit sends and plug ins in the mixer just like Logic does etc.

Also for some reason that link didn't hit to the overlay part of the Slate Logic tutorial, that's what I was trying to show...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAfzdCk5PAE#

[waxman]

Gravity Jim, my guess is it's a matter of big dog VS here. Pro Tools and Logic get nice overlays, Live and DP get Ravens mixer. If Slate sells thousands of copies of Raven for DP, then Raven for DP will get attention. Slate and other companies unfortunately tend to spend more time on Pro Tools and Logic than other DAWs because of the perceived audience for their products. On a side note Avid last month played off another huge amount of the Pro Tools team, while DP gets a Windows version and a NextGen PreGen upgrade.

I would guess if paying customers ask, it's possible they deliver. I don't see any reason why they can't DP has the ability to limit sends and plug ins in the mixer just like Logic does etc.

Also for some reason that link didn't hit to the overlay part of the Slate Logic tutorial, that's what I was trying to show...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAfzdCk5PAE#

Yeah this stinks... at 14:50 on that video it says "however be aware the Logic window adjust sizes when loading plugins..." So that seems strange JameyZ says it's because DP adjust sizes that they can't do the full mixer on DP. Hmmm... you may be right Michael if we are only 3 people who want a DP to have what PT and Logic have then we may be out of luck." If that's the case it's time for MOTU to do a touch mixer.

I am so amazed that people continue to deal with AVID. My friend was board level eStaff of AVID and says it is the worst run company ever. No doubt PT engineers are getting laid off. The herd mentality of supporting PT is beyond me and is most likely a reason DP gets a lesser Raven release. That said my experience with Slate and their support staff has been stellar. Slate is the best company I have run across. I hope Steven Slate will do the right thing and throw some resources at the Raven DP version. Hopefully Matt Dodge will have a "take."

[Michael Canavan]

I am so amazed that people continue to deal with AVID. My friend was board level eStaff of AVID and says it is the worst run company ever. No doubt PT engineers are getting laid off. The herd mentality of supporting PT is beyond me and is most likely a reason DP gets a lesser Raven release. That said my experience with Slate and their support staff has been stellar. Slate is the best company I have run across. I hope Steven Slate will do the right thing and throw some resources at the Raven DP version. Hopefully Matt Dodge will have a "take."

They had solid solution to the table first, low latency PCI cards that recorded audio before anyone else did.

As far as Slate is concerned it's probably just them being cautious, if enough people buy the software, then they'll do the overlay. I'm glad that even with the overlay, they still have the Raven Mixer though, since for composing it's nice to have the plug in slots etc. available, but for mix down it's nice to have the long throw faders. To be honest, if they just made the damn faders on the floating mixer the same size as the DP mixer that would be enough for me in the mean time.

[waxman]

As far as Slate is concerned it's probably just them being cautious, if enough people buy the software, then they'll do the overlay. I'm glad that even with the overlay, they still have the Raven Mixer though, since for composing it's nice to have the plug in slots etc. available, but for mix down it's nice to have the long throw faders. To be honest, if they just made the damn faders on the floating mixer the same size as the DP mixer that would be enough for me in the mean time.

That's what I think... and maybe some color coordination... agreed I am not bashing Slate or the Raven but it seems so close...

In the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAfzdCk5PAE#

Did you see how the Raven is aligning to Logic? Are the channels changing width? If so just give me static mixer with the same size channel width at DP and I won't even connect them. The DP mixer follows the Banking left and right 24. That is all I need. In fact I prefer it rather then lock a mixer into the Raven. Just have it ergonomically line up and DP upper mixer can be set to taste and never effect the Raven...


Yeah PT was first to fix the latency problem. It's the industry standard. But it will go away because AVID as a company is FUBAR.

[waxman]

Thanks for that link. It was very helpful in understanding the problems with the DP version of Raven.

I've posted this same question on the Slate board: Why? Why does DP require it's own intercessionary built-from-scratch mixer, and why can't we have the "overlay" approach that clearly works so well in Logic?

JameyZ answered my question already: he says they can't do the overlay because the DP mixer resizes itself with each insert, but that's not the case here: I have it set to show 5 blank inserts at the top of each channel and the mixer remains the same as I fill those slots. He says, "We can always add things, it will get better." I don't know if hoping for complete functionality in the mixer one day is a great reason to hang on to it.

Turns out JameyZ is correct my apologies JameyZ. I have been trying the remote Batch Commander on my iPad. Dangerous if you don't know what you're doing... Hit the "Create Mono Delay" button and BOOM you get a 7 insert sends and a MOTU preset... So hmmm... what is the answer... But that also happens in Logic and they worked around it...

[waxman]

Thanks for that link. It was very helpful in understanding the problems with the DP version of Raven.

I've posted this same question on the Slate board: Why? Why does DP require it's own intercessionary built-from-scratch mixer, and why can't we have the "overlay" approach that clearly works so well in Logic?

So now the question for me is: do I sell the Raven and go forward with DP, which I prefer, or do I make Logic Pro X (which I own) my primary DAW and keep the Raven in a form that really works? Because even if they get all the bugs ironed out of the DP Mixer, it's still going to be half-assed, and you're still going to need the top half of the DP mixer for every mix. And DP is about to release this blockbuster version that's supposed to increase CPU efficiency by incredible leaps... I don't want to make Logic my main DAW just before that happens.

JameyZ answered my question already: he says they can't do the overlay because the DP mixer resizes itself with each insert, but that's not the case here: I have it set to show 5 blank inserts at the top of each channel and the mixer remains the same as I fill those slots. He says, "We can always add things, it will get better." I don't know if hoping for complete functionality in the mixer one day is a great reason to hang on to it.

But disappointment aside, I'm going to wait for the 3.03 official release before deciding whether to live with it, ditch it, or try the Logic profile.

Hey Jim... I'm starting to get tweaked about this (you've burst my bubble.) I spent all day digging in on Batch Commander and the Raven... The BC is working great especially with an ipad mini remote so I can see more and use more commands without adding racks. It becomes a dance around available real estate.

But the whole floating Raven mixer with offset DP access is N/G. Or in the case of the big Raven no access unless you use a second monitor and that is Mackie MCU land all over again with bad ergonomics and channels strips out of alignment with the Raven faders.

Today tried forcing myself not to use the mouse unless I was stuck. I finally had to just working with the full DP mixer on the Raven screen and switching between TO, Sequence and Mixer. It's the PT way of doing things. At that point not having to go to the mouse became more natural.

But then I'm not even using the Raven mixers during production in that workflow. The single point touch and short throw on the dp faders is a drag but better then the offset channels. My other method which results in not having the tracks line up with the faders is half way like the Mackie MCU"s. It's a double take every time you want a channel function like insert, pan, aux send etc. This is just such garbage. I find myself opening plugs or adjusting auxes on the wrong track. When on a fader I need to then find the corresponding dp track by looking at the name tag (which is different because the Raven renames) then follow that up the channel.

One thing that worked is to make window sets with quick keys and then I can go between different workflow scenarios and screen mixer configurations. I hope all the pics I posted and suggestions will get some results. Like Michael said if the faders and channel functions just lined I'd be good to go... I'm going to call slate this week and see what they think.

It's not a MOTU problem. In the DP mixer prefs you can just uncheck "automatically add inserts" and that will keep the mixer size stable. So I see no reason Slate can not fix the Raven for dp. Slate needs to add automation to the big mixer and resize the floating mixer and make the ins button do something like automation or whatever... I would like to see how one of the Raven guys work in DP... JameyZ was using a lot of mouse in his demos on PT.

I start most projects from scratch. I do pop music which is all about tracking and then mixing songwriters and bands. Much of the time is spent mixing is on automation at the end. For doing artist and bands I love the DP flexibility. It's fast and constrained or limited... ok man I appreciate your thoughts and help with Slate. I am REALLY glad you are hanging in until the update but I doubt it will address the channel alignment issues. But if Slate said, "we will have that solved in 90 days" I would be STOKED...

PS... I own PT 11 and Logic. I have used both extensively and still do if it is an issue with a client but I prefer DP. If it's not fixed I will have to buy two more Slate licenses when the next clients come in demanding PT or Logic. $198 bucks is not the end of the world. If the Raven were a Avid product it would be $1,198 every year but $39 per tech call.

[Gravity Jim]

PS... I own PT 11 and Logic. I have used both extensively and still do if it is an issue with a client but I prefer DP. If it's not fixed I will have to buy two more Slate licenses when the next clients come in demanding PT or Logic. $198 bucks is not the end of the world. If the Raven were a Avid product it would be $1,198 every year but $39 per tech call.

Ha! Well, that's certainly true-ish.

[Gravity Jim]

See, in this set-up, you lose the long faders, the graphic scribble strip... either way it's going to be a half-assed solution.

They're going for more than the original price used on eBay, because of the waiting list. If I can get $1.2K for mine, it's out of here. Just listed it on the north bay Craigslist.

Didn't mean to burst any bubbles... just reporting my experience as I get further into it. It might be an awesome tool for lots of people... but I don't need another source of aggravation, and I'm not switching to Logic just to use this goofy toy. If I ever feel like I really miss Batch Commander, I think you can buy that software on it's own.

[waxman]

See, in this set-up, you lose the long faders, the graphic scribble strip... either way it's going to be a half-assed solution.

They're going for more than the original price used on eBay, because of the waiting list. If I can get $1.2K for mine, it's out of here. Just listed it on the north bay Craigslist.

Didn't mean to burst any bubbles... just reporting my experience as I get further into it. It might be an awesome tool for lots of people... but I don't need another source of aggravation, and I'm not switching to Logic just to use this goofy toy. If I ever feel like I really miss Batch Commander, I think you can buy that software on it's own.

Yeah it's a band aid. But I need faders so it works for me. I did a session with just the DP mixer today and it was a drag. I finally switched back to the floating mixer. So hopefully a solution will come to pass.

The Raven is a great tool for $1000 bucks. I'm sure there are a ton of PT and Logic users out there that will buy yours in a hot second. If Raven gets working you can get another one. Who knows maybe this will put a bug under MOTU to get a touch mixer. Can't believe PreSonus Studio one has a touch screen and DP does not...

Hopefully the guys at Slate will make this great. I'm in even at the half ass level.

[Michael Canavan]

See, in this set-up, you lose the long faders, the graphic scribble strip... either way it's going to be a half-assed solution.

Even with the overlay in Logic you lose the graphic scribble strip. Better to compare the overlays to the floating mixer than the Raven one, Logic includes the Raven one as well.

I can see why you might be disappointed, but it's funny just today I was thinking about how I work, and realizing that for the composing part of songwriting I really don't need long faders or multitouch. I could easily just use the DP mixer until it came time to really adjust levels. In fact one of DPs inherent limitations with Mackie type control in general is no control for V-Racks, and I house synths in V-Racks that I occasionally adjust volume on.

When I am adjusting volume for mix down though, I really really like the long faders. I'm ambivalent about batch commands because so many I want I'm going to have to program myself, but once I do I'm sure to be into it. On the Mackie I really like being able to bounce to Markers so that will be the first one, the key command for it is a PITA.

[waxman]

I was thinking about how I work, and realizing that for the composing part of songwriting I really don't need long faders or multitouch... I could easily just use the DP mixer until it came time to really adjust levels... I really really like the long faders.

I am digging the floating mixer faders for all the production work. I tried just DP mixer today and had to go back to the floating mixer. My next mix once ALL the production is done I am going to try mixing on the big Raven with long throw faders and DP mixer open in the monitor above the Raven. Mostly just for arming automation. Maybe a few tweaks but those will need to be with the mouse. This thing is so close to being right. Colors and ergonomics were not considered. There are not any DP guys at Slate. Mostly PT and Ableton. Steve uses Cubase. It may be a struggle to get them to fix Raven for DP.

[Michael Canavan]

I tried just DP mixer today and had to go back to the floating mixer.

With touch and the small faders in DP, the fine fader Command key is your friend. BTW it also works in the Raven mixers for Solo Fine Fader!

This thing is so close to being right. Colors and ergonomics were not considered.

Well to be fair Slate does that whole hardware emulation thing that DP only partially does. I vastly prefer DP GUI wise to anything except maybe some great flat designs like DMG Audio, and they just do plug ins, so it's sort of unfair of us, we have the best looking DAW over all so anything less will look bad!

There are not any DP guys at Slate. Mostly PT and Ableton. Steve uses Cubase. It may be a struggle to get them to fix Raven for DP.

ou have to be fair here, the tech guy I talked to about the Fine Fader issue, who also happens to be the guy answering questions in the forums is an ex DP user with good memories very likely to be 100% back in DP when the update makes it the CPU king!