New Mac Pro DP8

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bayswater
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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by bayswater »

Hasn't Apple specifically said that Logic does make use of the 12 cores? I don't see why this would be difficult to implement. If the people who write things like geek bench can figure out how to support 12 cores, then surely DAW programmers will do it if they haven't already.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/05/ ... -in-update
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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by mikehalloran »

Chris T wrote:
I also posted on Mac Rumors, and it seems like there's a consensus AGAINST getting a 12-core nMP for DAW use since most audio software cannot really utilize that many cores, and so the individual processor speed is the crucial factor.

Any more opinions on this?..
The mysterious gaggle of armchair non-experts is easily dismissed. Really, who cares what they've heard about most audio programs? What are you using?

We know that DP can use all 12 cores if you set up your projects correctly. As a DP user, what else is important?
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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by HCMarkus »

Chris T wrote:
Next gen nMP will almost certainly be using a different CPU socket
What does this mean? Any reason why waiting for the nMP could be a disadvantage (apart from the fact that I have to wait!).

I also posted on Mac Rumors, and it seems like there's a consensus AGAINST getting a 12-core nMP for DAW use since most audio software cannot really utilize that many cores, and so the individual processor speed is the crucial factor.

Any more opinions on this?..
They're probably wrong. Consider those who have been using 12 core cMPs… DP seems to scale really well; it uses all 12 of my virtual cores on my hex cMP. DAWs typically do a ton of parallel processing. Think about multi-track tape, and analogize that to multi-core CPUs.

The different CPU socket is necessitated by changes in the Intel CPU architecture. You will always get more bang for your buck in computers if you wait. So why buy anything, ever? (Unless of course, you have some actual work you'd like to get done.)
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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by Steve Steele »

Chris T wrote:
Next gen nMP will almost certainly be using a different CPU socket
What does this mean? Any reason why waiting for the nMP could be a disadvantage (apart from the fact that I have to wait!).

I also posted on Mac Rumors, and it seems like there's a consensus AGAINST getting a 12-core nMP for DAW use since most audio software cannot really utilize that many cores, and so the individual processor speed is the crucial factor.

Any more opinions on this?..
Depends on what type of work you're doing. Perhaps if you're doing audio only and not too many heavy plugins, I might go for a cheaper but faster 6 core.

But if you're doing large MIDI mockups with samplers and VEPro, MOTU recommends the 12 core system especially when the the raw power adds up to be more than the single core system. DP fully supports MP, so does VEPro and Kontakt. So, when using those three the more threads the better.

PC buyers will sometimes comment that Macs aren't upgradable. With MacPros that mostly not true in the sense that everything in a MacPro worth replacing is replaceable, including in some models the CPUs (the 2009-2010 models for example). Many of the 2010 12 core MacPros on ebay are 2009 models with upgraded CPUs and firmware. The current models are CPU upgradable I believe too, unless the socket pin configuration changes as new Intel CPUs are released (I.e. They won't fit). That's what happened to the 2008 MacPro. I could replace the CPUs in mine but I could only install the same model CPU, hence not worth it.

If you want to know if the current MacPros CPU will be upgradable to the next Intel CPU model, you need to know the specs on the upcoming CPU.

To answer you're question, the "consenses" on Macrumors is wrong. To prove it, open a heavy VI session in DP and look at the CPU monitor in Acticity Monitor and you'll see DP is using every core about equally. Keep in mind that there are people that use DAWs mainly for audio mixing and then there are people that use DAWs for large MIDI/VI workstations. Requirements for the two are slightly different.

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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by BKK-OZ »

In my experience, my 6 core is plenty snappy for DP.

Apart from Mach 5, I don't get processor spikes, even while running 10+ VI's and tons of plugs, and using a very low buffer. I doubt that even the most demanding user would have need of much more for DAW work.

On the video side however, too much is never enough, and the lack of utliization of the Mac's GPUs for lots of tasks means that you could always use more and more and more of everything (CPU, RAM, etc.).
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…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
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Steve Steele
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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by Steve Steele »

BKK-OZ wrote:In my experience, my 6 core is plenty snappy for DP.

Apart from Mach 5, I don't get processor spikes, even while running 10+ VI's and tons of plugs, and using a very low buffer. I doubt that even the most demanding user would have need of much more for DAW work.

On the video side however, too much is never enough, and the lack of utliization of the Mac's GPUs for lots of tasks means that you could always use more and more and more of everything (CPU, RAM, etc.).
Large orchestral mockups with DP plus VEPro on one MacPro is a different story however. Loading up 64GBs of samples at least at one time is common place. For those systems, it's good to check with MOTU to see if a slower 12 core or the quicker 6 core is better. MOTU says the 12 core for the current MacPros is better for a high demand DP/VEPro system. Some guys use 5-10 systems slaved together. But for the average DP/VEPro 1 or 2 Macs or PCs would do.

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Chris T
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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by Chris T »

Thanks guys

I think that answers my questions re. DP and the 12-Core MP. I am a heavey MIDI, VI, VEP user, so I think the more processing power the better.

Any recommendations as to where to get cheaper, reliable RAM (instead of the super overpriced Apple option)?

Cheers
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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by bayswater »

Chris T wrote:Thanks guys

I think that answers my questions re. DP and the 12-Core MP. I am a heavey MIDI, VI, VEP user, so I think the more processing power the better.

Any recommendations as to where to get cheaper, reliable RAM (instead of the super overpriced Apple option)?

Cheers
I've had good luck with these guys. http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20 ... 66D3E8M32/
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Steve Steele
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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by Steve Steele »

Chris T wrote:Thanks guys

I think that answers my questions re. DP and the 12-Core MP. I am a heavey MIDI, VI, VEP user, so I think the more processing power the better.

Any recommendations as to where to get cheaper, reliable RAM (instead of the super overpriced Apple option)?

Cheers
I'm a distributor for MemoryTen. It's not my main business but I'll buy memory for myself or I'll sometimes do group buys for my friends at MOTUNATION or VI Control. I may get a new MacPro in the near future, and if I do I'll be purchasing some RAM, in which case I'd be glad to do a group buy and you'll pay my same approximate cost.

Otherwise, OWC is good but expensive. Newegg is good but try to find the same memory chips Apple uses (Samsung for example if Apple still uses them - which I doubt) and try to find a good manufacturer/DIMM reseller (Mushkin for example). That's key to getting quality RAM.

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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by toodamnhip »

BKK-OZ wrote:I've got a 6-core with 32giggly bits of RAM.

No Ve, but I do run lots of VI's with no problems whatever.
I run a very low buffer (128) and apart from Mach V (naughty M5!), I don't get processor spikes or other hiccups. I'm very happy with my set up, but others here say that the previous generation MP is fine too. I had to move up, my old MP is a 2/1 vintage, and it was really starting to struggle and I just didn't want to go through another upgrade cycle in 2015, so I bit the bullet and got one of the Darth-cans pretty much as soon as they came out.

Remember with the new MPs, everything is now a peripheral, so you need to budget for that too. I ended up going with a Pegasus R4 external RAID box, which so far has been great for my needs (very snappy).

Sorry, can't help you on the other questions.
I am a big fan of DP running a very stable system with lots of VIs and mixing Stayed at 10.6.8, running on an 8 core 5,1. . However, I never cease to be astounded how Mach 5 can make problems for it’s OWN host DAW..DP. I would think Mach 5 should run it’s best on DP.
I traced a horrible stuck notes issue to Mach 5. I also recall updating the sounds database to Mach 5 and having problems. I think Mach 5 has some amazing features and ingenuity to it. But I don;t understand why it makes processor spikes on your system or has created stuck notes issues for me in the past. I am now fairly reluctant to use it, though I still do from time to time. I will wait until the 2nd generation of Mac coffee cans comes out and then I will finally join the Yosemite party. I loaded Yosemite into mac laptop and the computer feels more sluggish to me ever since. Hmm...?
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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by toodamnhip »

HCMarkus wrote:
Chris T wrote:With this is mind, would a 12-Core, 2.7Ghz machine be better than the 6-Core 3.5Ghz machine ? (I.e. apart from DP, does the other software I used benefit better from more (slower) cores, or fewer (faster) cores?

Thanks!
Although scalling across cores is not typically 100% efficient, there is also OS overhead, which is a constant, so you should be able to get a pretty good idea of relative power for DP by simply multiplying cores by speed:

12 x 2.7 = 32.4
6 x 3.5 = 21.0

This assumes the max clock speed with all cores fully engaged is as Intel states. As you can see, the ratio is about 3 to 2, so the 12 core should be able to handle about half again more VIs than the hex. But single threaded apps won't be quite as snappy with the big beast.

Also, check Geekbench multi-core scores for the machines you are considering.
Interesting and very simple way to compare what initially seems like a “too complex to understand” set of specs. Nice.
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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by toodamnhip »

nightwatch wrote:There's also the idea of taking the money you save from buying a 6 core instead of a 12 core MP and buying an iMac for a DP host, while adding a 6 core for your VEPro slave. You'd have plenty of power on the iMac to run DP, most plugins, some VIs and some light VEPro instances on that too.

I'm considering either..

12 core 64GBs
or
6 core 64 GBs
or
iMac 27" i7 3.5GHz plus a 6 core MP slave
or
2010 MP 3.47 GHz and iMac

The Geekbench score for a combined iMac i7 3.5 and a current 6 core 3.5GHz is 35526. That's equal to the 12 core. The iMac/6 core system might feel quicker, but you have to factor in the 2 system latency not to mention any hassles with a 2 computer system.

iMac + 6 core = $9000 (more or less)
12 core = $9000 (more or less)

interesting thought
I could never run one of my typical mixes on an imac. Not sure I agree with that. Though for some, the imac could be good advice.
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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by BKK-OZ »

toodamnhip wrote:
BKK-OZ wrote:I've got a 6-core with 32giggly bits of RAM.

No Ve, but I do run lots of VI's with no problems whatever.

I run a very low buffer (128) and apart from Mach V (naughty M5!)...
I never cease to be astounded how Mach 5 can make problems for it’s OWN host DAW..DP. I would think Mach 5 should run it’s best on DP.
I hear you brother - I haven't had the time or interest to pin down the exact set of circumstances do that I could report them to MOTU/UVI, so I guess I am a bit culpable in all this, but on the other hand, it ought not to be up to users like me to get things working between M5 and DP.

I gave up on BPM on the same basis - just crashy crashy, and no updates for years. I have found Maschine and Kontact to be both reliable and sufficient for my needs.

MOTU must face.
Cheers,
BK

…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
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Steve Steele
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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by Steve Steele »

toodamnhip wrote:
nightwatch wrote:There's also the idea of taking the money you save from buying a 6 core instead of a 12 core MP and buying an iMac for a DP host, while adding a 6 core for your VEPro slave. You'd have plenty of power on the iMac to run DP, most plugins, some VIs and some light VEPro instances on that too.

I'm considering either..

12 core 64GBs
or
6 core 64 GBs
or
iMac 27" i7 3.5GHz plus a 6 core MP slave
or
2010 MP 3.47 GHz and iMac

The Geekbench score for a combined iMac i7 3.5 and a current 6 core 3.5GHz is 35526. That's equal to the 12 core. The iMac/6 core system might feel quicker, but you have to factor in the 2 system latency not to mention any hassles with a 2 computer system.

iMac + 6 core = $9000 (more or less)
12 core = $9000 (more or less)

interesting thought
I could never run one of my typical mixes on an imac. Not sure I agree with that. Though for some, the imac could be good advice.
Yeah. I would only use an iMac if I were using DP strictly as the MIDI sequencer for VEPro (on a slave), and with a mastering channel strip (maybe a couple of reverb aux channels). Since that's not my only template, I probably won't go that way. I have another template that is all VIs in DP's Vracks, and I'd rather not rely on an i7 for that.

The main problem with the MacPro pricing is the cost of those AMD FirePro video cards that we have to pay for. If it weren't for those the MacPros could be a lot cheaper.

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Re: New Mac Pro DP8

Post by Steve Steele »

Anybody know where there is information regarding DP's (or an DAW or audio app) usage of the GPU? I'm not up on the latest, but is it even possible for an app to tap into GPU resources when the CPU is getting taxed? Could a developer code that into the app? I wonder if OSX can do or does some of that automatically, and what the criteria for an app using the GPU would be.

There's a lot of power sitting in those MacPros in those video cards, and if DP or any DAW doesn't use them for anything more than screen redraw, it's a huge waste of money. I use Final Cut X often but only for simple youtube videos. Nothing I need $5k worth of video cards for.

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