Mics and Pre-Amps again

[Shooshie]

I'm looking at taking my recording to "the next level" which means spending wayyy too much for way too little. Naturally, I'm trying not to make any mistakes. I've got decent microphones, and I've been getting decent recordings. But I've finally admitted to myself that there's a difference in high-dollar mics.

I've used Neumann U87, AKG-414, and Neumann TLM-103 mics, and I've been on projects that used probably a dozen different kinds of Neumanns. The engineers were not good at mic placement, but the sounds of the mics were really excellent. My problem when I used those mics myself was that I didn't have a pair of any of them. They were always one-offs. Loaners, or someone with a couple of good solo mics, but no pair. But when I'd listen to what I was getting through the mics, the sound was truly impressive.

I ended up using 10 Shure KSM-32s for an extended project, over an 8 year period, and they were very good. But I needed 10 mics, and I couldn't afford 10 TLM-103s. But careful mic placement and EQ gave me a great sound. Today I have Earthworks and Studio Projects, plus a couple of Blue mics that really aren't suitable for professional projects, even if Blue thinks they are.

In short, I've been around the block with mics. I know how most of them sound, and I simply haven't heard anything that I think compares with a U87 or M149. They're kind of pricey to buy in pairs, but I'm considering getting either a pair of each or a pair and a solo.

Then there's the pre-amp… and that's what's stumping me right now. What kind of pre-amp do you use with a U87 or an M149? Do you use it in place of a MOTU interface? Can you use it in-line with a MOTU interface without losing detail? I'd rather MOTU make my interfaces, because they update their drivers more predictably. I'd much rather run a pre-amp into my MOTU box through AES or fiber optic or whatever.

Anyway, I'm just finding facts right now. If I got a pair of each of those, plus a pre-amp, I'd be looking at $22K if I bought them new. Neumann, like Apple, gives no wiggle-room on price. I'm assuming about $4k for a pre-amp. Of course, if I figure out exactly what I need, I might try it on eBay first. But at these prices, I really can't afford to experiment or make a mistake.

Sheesh… I may not even do it, but I certainly won't do it if I don't find out what I need to know. So, I'd best do the research. If anyone here has some positive experience with these things, I'd love to hear how you set it up.

Any comments? Suggestions? Especially pre-amp suggestions?

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

PS: I'm not trying to spend a lot of money; I'm just resigned to spending what I have to. So if there are less expensive alternatives to the pre-amps, or a great place to get these particular mics used but in pristine condition, then I'm all for that. I'm just tired of comparing everything to a U87 or an M149 when… what the heck… why not just HAVE those mics?

Shooshie

[fullertime]

I feel you bro! Decisions decisions.... $$$$...

I had a u-87 and an Avalon 737sp for about 6 years and they were great.... I also use it with an LA-610 and that was pretty good too but not as good as the Avalon.... But those bad boys are pricey and you would need 2!!!! Yikes....


The Neumann TLM 103 - $1100 (not a U-87 but same capsule) freaking very close for the price!!!) It really is the best mic for that price range but there is nothing quite like a U-87!!!

As far as pres go though, that's where you actually have better options!!!


I believe that the API 500 series lunchbox is the way to go for preamps- totally customizable and interchangeable...

I went with the Neve 511 Mic Pre ($550)
And the Neve Portico 543 compressor ($1000)
The API Chasis was ($400)

That with TLM103 is sweet!!!!

I think the real investment is in the interface though....

I still have an 896(black lion mod), an audio express, a micro book and a few other audio MOTU interfaces but honestly the best thing I ever did was fork over the money and bought an UAD Apollo 16 and an Apogee d/a/a/d converter.... That's when I really started hearing an actual difference in the sonic clarity of my recordings... I love MOTU stuff but I feel like they are a little cheap with the D/A/A/D converters and word clocks...

Good luck bro! I'm sure you'll make a great decision but I encourage you to check out the 500 series stuff!!!! It's the way to go and better than forking over $4000 for one preamp that your stuck with! Every preamp has a unique sound and sometimes it's better to have choices!

Peace bro



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Phil O]

How many channels of mic pre do you need? I've been drooling over a True Systems Precision 8 (about $2700 street) for some time now - works out to be under $350 per channel. This is one of the "wire with gain" type of pres with very little coloration, which is probably what you want if your looking for the true character of a particular mic. You might also want to check out pres from Grace Design. More money than the offerings from True, but they are really pristine. I have one of the original 2 channel units and it's built like a tank and sounds fantastic.

Phil

[leigh]

I have a pair of M149s and love them! Some of the best money I've ever spent! I use the pres in my ULN-8. My percussionist friend borrows them to use as drum overheads because he is crazy about their "lazy" diaphragms (his words) on his kit. He uses an API pre with a MOTU interface but I don't know which API. If you'd like, I can find out what he uses.

**Leigh

[Shooshie]

How many channels of mic pre do you need? I've been drooling over a True Systems Precision 8 (about $2700 street) for some time now - works out to be under $350 per channel. This is one of the "wire with gain" type of pres with very little coloration, which is probably what you want if your looking for the true character of a particular mic. You might also want to check out pres from Grace Design. More money than the offerings from True, but they are really pristine. I have one of the original 2 channel units and it's built like a tank and sounds fantastic.

Phil

If I get a pair of each, that's four. I think my existing mics are covered, but I can think of worse things than to have 8 pres, enough for even most fairly large sessions, all in one place.

Presonus used to make an 8-off unit. Maybe they still do. It was a pretty crisp pre, and did a great job of the project I used them on. But I hear people say that these mics need really great pres if you want to get the most out of them. So, that's why I'm here. Feeling out the situation. I'm taking notes… will be studying all the ones mentioned. Thanks guys!

Shoosh

[rainmaker]

Firstly, you can certainly get much lower prices than retail list if you ask the right dealer. I got a brand new U87 not long ago for $2000 from SoundPure. Always ask for their best price. I also get a lot of money off with Sweetwater as well. You have to be honest with them and tell them you are strictly buying from the dealer who will give you the best price. Granted, I have spent a lot of money with these dealers over the years, but they will go down when asked. If you're not firm with this, they will see that and not bend. I just flat out told Sweetwater that I would buy most my gear through them only as long as they worked with me on price. Otherwise, I'd take my dollars elsewhere. Most dealers would rather take your money in spite of discounted prices.

Secondly, I have U87's, 103's and 149's. Honestly they are all great. Don't hesitate on the 102's as well. They are also great for the money.

As far as preamps, why not use a pre that bypasses your Motu Pres and AD converters? There are some very nice pres that will. API A2D, Focusrite 828 with AD card, etc. if you really want these mics to shine I would stay away from the cheaper pres such as presonus, Motu, etc. nothing against them to be honest. They will get the job done, but they aren't a Great River, Neve, etc. And you WILL end up wishing you had gone all the way with the pres as well if you went all the way with the mics.

My only other thought, I prefer pres with a bit of color with these types of mics. But a clean pre would be fine as well. I suppose that's a personal preference and certainly not a quality issue.

[Tobor]

Great River.

[guitardood]

My latest setup for box is a TLM103 going through an ART Pro Channel II (~$299) with stock tubes. Very satisfied so far. Also there is a great review in this month's SOS (http://www.soundonsound.com) for a Aphex Project Channel ($499) that makes it sound a little enticing despite it not having a traditional EQ.

If I had the spare $2600, I'd probably like to pick up a Universal Audio 6176 Vintage Channel Strip.

EDIT: I meant 'vox' not 'box'....stupid autocorrect! LOL!

[Phil O]

If I get a pair of each, that's four. I think my existing mics are covered, but I can think of worse things than to have 8 pres, enough for even most fairly large sessions, all in one place.

Not too many 4 channel units that I know of. Earthworks makes one, but I know nothing about it. Two 2-channel units might be a better option depending on price/performance. Tough call.

Presonus used to make an 8-off unit. Maybe they still do. It was a pretty crisp pre, and did a great job of the project I used them on. But I hear people say that these mics need really great pres if you want to get the most out of them. So, that's why I'm here. Feeling out the situation. I'm taking notes… will be studying all the ones mentioned.

Yeah, a high-end pre can make quite a difference. I once recording a quick scratch track with just guitar and voice. This was a throw away track so I just plugged a couple of sm-57s into my Grace pre. I remember thinking, "Wow, I never knew a 57 could sound so good." I checked out the Presonus and Focusrite stuff at one point and decided the bang for the buck just wasn't there. They've got some good stuff, but only at their high end. If I'm going high end I'll stick with companies like the ones I mentioned.

So take your time. Do your homework. Don't impulse buy. That's the ticket.

Phil

[mikehalloran]

Everyone I know raves about Millenia preamps with Neuman mics. You can get into boutique pres but a 4 or 8 channel Millenia is as good a place to start as any I know. If you have a 500 rack, you can get modules.

Sweetwater has a page listing the popular models:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Millennia

[Phil O]

I haven't had the opportunity to use any of the Millenia stuff. Have you heard any of it, Mike? This unit looks pretty sweet (from the specs anyway):
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HV3D4/
And it's 4 channel.

Phil

[mikehalloran]

Yes, I've used some of their pres but can't say I have really "heard" them. Ther object is that you don't.

Starting with a response of 3Hz - 300kHz (not a typo), it's not to hard to figure out their goals. Also audio out only - you do your conversion at the interface.

I need to limit hardware to what I can carry easily due to my handicap. I find Mackie Onyx pres nice enough and that 8 channel unit is nice and portable. I have some ART pres in my studio and a weird old 3 channel tube unit in my basement from the '60s that is not likely to be used again. I never set up 4 mics - it's always 1, 3, or 5-8 but never 4.

If I were making that kind of mic investment, I'd get the 8 channel Millenia as my workhorse preamp. Maybe add an Avon or perhaps a Manley later if I wanted something to color the sound a bit. Tons of ways to spend the money, right?

[Shooshie]

I have to say the Millennia are looking good. I've got to read more about them, though. I'd love a chance to hear a certain mic through like 6 different pre-amps. It feels like shooting in the dark if you just rely on others' comments. Of course, you're in the dark, but they're saying "turn a little this way… raise… shoot!" So, maybe if you trust the voices, you get a good product. But still I'd rather hear them.

But I'm on a loose timeline. It may be January or February before I pull the trigger. No hurry, no worry. I'm going to try to get something good, and for a price NOT like what Sweetwater is charging right now.

Sweetwater and every other dealer I've called (Sam Ash and others) are all saying the same line: Neumann made them sign an agreement not to discount their prices. Apparently Neumann is having a hard time keeping up with the demand.

Shooshie

[mikehalloran]

Sweetwater and every other dealer I've called (Sam Ash and others) are all saying the same line: Neumann made them sign an agreement not to discount their prices. Apparently Neumann is having a hard time keeping up with the demand.

That crap actually went to the Supreme Court. The judgement went against Sony. MAP can be enforced but actual selling prices cannot.

OTOH, if product supply is limited, dealers are hurting themselves by charging less. When you figure out the package you really want, somebody will want your money badly enough to make a decent offer for your business.