Best overhead results ever, using ORTF + Spaced Pair

[mhschmieder]

Every drum session just gets better and better, building upon the last.

Now that I have eight channels of expansion via the Focusrite ADAT pre-amp unit (OctoPre II), I decided I have nothing to lose by throwing up another pair of overheads on the drum set.

My last session debuted my recently adopted ORTF technique, where the mics are splayed 110 degrees apart, with the tips forward enough to form a triangle. This pair is mounted on an AEA Protractor atop a single non-boom mic stand, about 5-5.5 feet off the floor, a few feet behind the drummer, centered on the snare. Crisp detail and articulation in every kit piece, but of course not a very wide or full sound.

The more traditional Spaced Pair augments this to fill out the sound and give it a more three-dimensional kit sound. Not as articulate as ORTF, but the two complement each other perfectly, sort of like combining a DI and miked guitar or bass signal.

I placed the Spaced Pair about five feet apart, also a few feet behind the drummer and about 6-6.5 feet above the floor. As I sold most of my stereo pairs last year due to dissastisfaction, I tried out my new Avenson STO-2 Omni's, and was blown away! What a bargain, and way better than the Omni response on my sold Shure KSM-141, Oktava MK-419's, CAD 95's, or Avantone CK-1's (pencil FET mics).

ORTF duties are fulfilled by the incredibly detailed, flat, and transparent side-address Audio Technica ATM450's, which are bargain mics at one sixth the cost of Beyerdynamic MC930's or equivalent mics from Neumann etc.

The room was recently treated. The wood ceilings are eight feet up and untreated. Walls are carpeted with additional foam baffles. A carpet "curtain" creates some isolation of the drums from people doing ghost tracks on the other side (sans amps), to prevent bleed. So the "enclosed" space is probably roughly 10 feet by 12 feet.

I listened to each overhead pair soloed on its own, together, and with the full drum mix (not level-adjusted yet). The combined pair of pairs presents the full picture of the drum set, sounding like a well-tuned kit with a great player in a pretty good room. Not anechoic, nor very reverberant, but almost like a good drum room convolution reverb.

I found a site last week that had some nice audio clips of different OH techniques using the same room, player, drum set, and mics, which helped form my decision to add the Spaced Pair vs. a Blumlein Pair or Mid/Side Pair. My own results, with different gear/etc., closely match the characteristic differentiation of the five or so different overhead techniques at that site. I don't have that print-out with me but will try to remember to post the URL here once I have it at hand again.

[mhschmieder]

Interestingly, while going through a bunch of saved articles from the past ten years during this period where my home computer is inaccessible to me during the week, I was surprised to see three well-respected authorities on drum miking suggest this very scenario -- albeit with one minor twist.

Even the minor twist is sort of in line with what I did, given the space. The recommendation from one top engineer is to face the spaced pair into the room, in front of the drums. I put them behind the drums, but it's a small room, and partly why I am miking behind the drums vs. in front of the drums is to accomplish the same thing, which is to avoid reflections on the near wall behind the drummer.

Did I mention the floors? Many people overlook them, and they are often the worst enemy of studio recording. We have several layers of carpeting atop the floors, with a spacer in between. It is a rented vs. owned space, so we didn't do all the things we would like to do, but managed to accomplish many of the goals 90-95% on a small budget.

I'm not sure I'll ever do X/Y again, except maybe for individual instruments where I want to collect a stereo image. I can see doing a Modified Space Pair if recording a jazz brush kit, but for larger kits, I think I'm going to stick with this combined ORTF and Omni Spaced Pair approach.

I was thinking of the Omnis as Room Mics, but have seen inconsistent use of that term as well as Ambient Mics. I always thought the Room Mics were close to and over the kit, but further back from the main overheads. Now I see people referring to these as being ten feet off the ground and eight feet away from the kit. And I guess the ambient mics are even further away. I suppose it's all relative to the space! But I guess what I did qualifies as two pairs of Drum Overheads and no Room or Ambient Mics.

[mikehalloran]

I have been using ORTF from behind the drummer for years.

One thing you don't mention is that the centerlines for the diaphragms are spaced 17cm apart if following the ORTF spec.

There are many times when I avoid ORTF as it doesn't sum well to mono. Not an issue for drum overheads but a major deal for choral. ORTF also works really well for pit orchestras in theaters where the instruments line up to each side of the conductor and none are in the center.

[mhschmieder]

Yes, I should have mentioned the spacing for ORTF, which is easier with my AEA Protractor and so I neglected to add that detail.

It's funny you should mention choral applications, because I was just looking into that last night after reviewing stuff I had printed over the years for future reference.

I'm thinking of maybe adding a second Sennheiser e914 (cardioid) for that purpose, and going for the Jecklin Disc approach.

[mikehalloran]

Sometimes, when using ORTF behind the throne, I find that reversing polarity sounds a little better in the mix - other times not. The exact spacing in relation to the other mics is the determining factor.

[Phil O]

Just for the record, Mike, there's a typo in your earlier post. Should be 17 cm. Wouldn't want someone unfamiliar with the technique trying it at 17 mm.

But that's not why I chimed in. Just wanted to say that I have a relatively small space for drums (about 16 x 12 ft) and I have a matched pair of Earthworks TC20 that I use as overheads sometimes. The trick in this small space is to get them very close to the drums. If I want more room sound, I just pull them back a little. With these I use a spacing of about 4-5 feet and equidistant from the snare.

I've also used a pair of AKG 451b's placed as Mike suggests with good results. I've tried these as XY, ORTF, and spaced pair, but ORTF seems to give the best results most of the time with the cardioids (in this space anyway).

Phil

edit: Just a final note on omnis. Most omnis are slightly directional, particularly at higher frequencies. Brad Lyons was criticized once here for saying he used some omnis in an XY configuration. I had to take his side on that one. I've found that even with these fine Earthworks omnis, the direction you point them in DOES make a difference.

[mikehalloran]

Whoops! Phil is right - I have edited.

Also regarding the directionality of omnis. They are truly "omni" at bass frequencies only.

[mhschmieder]

I have a much better recording space since I wrote my original post, with wood floors (carpeted) and space underneath the floors (a crawl space, as they call it).

The ORTF set is the weak point after many other upgrades. The ATM450 side address pencil condensers are an incredible bargain, but were always meant as a placeholder. I'll be replacing them soon with Peluso P84's, which to my ears are the best-ever "Neumann KM84 wannabe's". Vintage and modern at the same time, and very detailed.

I was originally thinking of my new Beyerdynamic MC930 pair in this role, but they surprised me by replacing my dynamic mics on the snare drum.

The thing is, I really like how the P84's work in Spaced Pair mode, but I've been using the Aversion STO-2's in that role. So now I'm going back to the whole drum room mic question and doing some critical listening to see if I want to use the omni's in something other than Spaced Pair configuration.

I like the P84's best in cardioid pattern vs. omni, but there is also a hyper-cardioid capsule available that I've never heard nor tried. And of course, I have yet to try these in my own space as I haven't bought them yet.

I do like the way the ORTF combines with the Spaced Pair, and especially the contribution of the Crown PZM-30D as a ceiling mic (previously used as a back wall mic in the other recording space). I could get by with the Crown and nothing else, as even this mono mic source sounds the most three dimensional, detailed, and spacious of anything I throw at the kit.

Still not having any polarity or imaging problems with the ORTF configuration, and only have to do mild balancing of the Spaced Pair at mix time. I'm considering other options, besides ORTF, but do not plan to go back to X/Y. Although, I might consider a Blumlein ribbon pair from Coles or AEA.

[mhschmieder]

Interestingly, Schoeps makes a preconfigured ORTF pair using two MK4 capsules:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MSTC64g

I wasn't aware of that model before today. Not a bad price by Schoeps standards.

[mhschmieder]

After a lot of listening, I've decided that I still prefer the combination of ORTF with Spaced Pair, in a smaller room, but might consider Blumlein with ribbons as a more ambient mic pair further out (when space allows).

I'm looking at DPA ST2011A (maybe the compact C model instead) as more appropriate for drums than the smoother and more detailed (but slightly boomy) ST4011A, but also am wondering whether the USA-made Earthworks SR40 might be more bang-for-buck and well-suited for drums and ORTF (I already had it in mind for other stuff, such as choirs -- though I might want omni for that).

Other than that, the Peluso P84 might work well as ORTF, and then there's the special Schoeps model linked earlier but it's in between the price of the DPA ST2011 and ST4011.

[mikehalloran]

The better the room, the more I like M-S. I use Blumelein only in great sounding large rooms such as concert halls.

The newer sE VOODOO Vr2 and Rupert Neve designed RNR1 are impressing me lately. The highs out of these active ribbon mics are very nice while not sacrificing the deep lows that I expect from a great ribbon.

http://www.sweetwater.com/c403--sE_Elec ... fgod_VoEow

I have a line on a used RNR1 and may burn a credit card to get it if it sounds as good on piano and double bass as I expect.

[mhschmieder]

I may have to put off the next upgrade to this setup, as the cost is going up quickly.

I have written off Earthworks mics in spite of loving the company and the people that work there. Very detailed sound, but grainy to my ears (maybe the same thing?). I've settled on DPA 4011 (pricey!) vs. DPA 2011 as I think I'd regret the 2011's and the 4011's are my "ideal mic" for ORTF in choir and small chamber group recording, so I'd ultimately be buying 4011's anyway.

For the Spaced Pair, I think I'd rather use a pair of Coles 4038 ribbon mics than even a nice LDC pair like the Peluso P84's. I still want the latter for mandolin and other stringed instruments, but doubt I'd feel compelled to take care of that right away when the Beyerdynamic MC930's are so good already (even though way cheaper). A pair of Coles 4038's, like DPA 4011's, is well over $3000 though.

After a considerable amount of more research, I haven't really found any "in between" solutions for upgrading from the Audio-Technica ATM450's in the ORTF role, that I wouldn't find end up being just short-term stop-gaps. So it's back to the listening desk to re-evaluate how relatively strong or weak my current setup is in terms of Avenson STO-2 omni as overheads.

I'm not yet really ready to go active on ribbon mics. Maybe eventually. After all, up until a year ago, I was terrified of tube mics (having no experience with them), but then found they're quite safe after all.

[Phil O]

...I have written off Earthworks mics in spite of loving the company and the people that work there. Very detailed sound, but grainy to my ears (maybe the same thing?)...

Wow, I'm surprised. I've got a pair of TC20s and they are like human ears. Incredibly accurate - WYHIWYG. If they're sounding grainy to you, I'd suggest there might be a problem somewhere. Maybe you got a hold of a bad mic. Just sayin'.

Re:ORTF, I have a pair of AKG 451Bs that work well in that configuration. I also used a pair of Rode NT1s once in ORTF and was pleasantly surprised.

Also, have you looked at Audio Technica's 4051b? I've heard good things about them but I haven't heard one myself.

Phil

[mhschmieder]

Haven't heard the TC20's; just the TC15's. And at one point, TC30's or TC40's, but too many years ago to remember the source (definitely not drums).

Thanks for the reminder on the AT4051's; I had crossed them off my list and forgotten about them, once I finally decided on MC930's a couple of years ago. Very similar mics, and I like both better than modern KM184's (but still like the idea of Peluso P84's which are FET and a bit different in use or sound from either the Beyer or Audio-Technica SDC's).

Actually, that might solve my dilemma, because I may find that I prefer the AT's on the snare and using the Beyers as OH's. Likely the other way around though, as in general Beyer is my go-to mic company for drum close-miking (though Audio-Technica plays the next-most important role there -- especially on the toms, and recently also on the snare when I was still using dynamic mics there).

I prefer to only have one pair of each mic, for more variety and flexibility, which is why I didn't want to buy a second MC930 pair. Also, it makes it easier to avoid accidental intermixing of previous matched pairs.

[mhschmieder]

Over at Sweetwater, one of the product reviewers for the AT4051-b (I must look up the difference between this and the AT4051-a they have on offer) compares this mic quite favorably vs. the DPA 4011, saying that in blind tests, more than a few sound engineers confused the AT4051-b with the DPA 4011. Hmm, food for thought.

They are definitely suggested for both snare top and bottom, and OH's, so it would probably be a toss-up as to which mic ended up where. And by OH's I strictly mean ORTF, as I probably still want something a bit less bright (like a Peluso P84 or Coles 4038 set) on a Spaced Pair configuration.