A tool to enter and manipulate drum grooves

[mikehalloran]

Pretty sure the Korg is class-compliant, so I don't expect a driver will be required,

Korg makes no such claim but it uses the same drivers and editor app as current Korg products—all have been updated recently enough to inspire confidence. In addition, the PadKontrol shows up on their matrix as being 100% compatible with High Sierra (impressive for a 13 year old product). Anyway, I decided to pull the trigger.

... Happy New Year!

You too!

[philbrown]

@Jon Stubbs - I made up a DP transpose map according to your picture and using standard GM MIDI notes from a chart I got off the net. I wanted to share the Transpose map itself but I can not find the file anywhere even though I saved it. I thought most of this stuff DP stored as accessible files but it appears this one isn't, unless someone can tell me where to look. Once I cross-referenced the charts it only took a few minutes to create the transpose map in DP - you just scoll down the right column with the downward arrow key (I love that about DP's GUI). For some reason I don't understand, the manual says you need to enter 128 in both 'Number of Notes' boxes before you start. This pic will hopefully make it easy for anyone that wants to try this out. I centered everything around C3 but you can use any other octave as your center point, of course. Thanks Jon!

EDIT:
Here's his video link. Turns out you need skillz too It will take some practice but I'm digging it so far.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com/misc/StubTubsDemo.mp4

[stubbsonic]

The map itself is saved inside the DP file, and can be accessed in other projects using the Load... function.

So a person could create a DP file without much or any content in it and use it as a container for transpose maps. The transpose maps could be included in any templates or the default.

[philbrown]

The map itself is saved inside the DP file, and can be accessed in other projects using the Load... function.

So a person could create a DP file without much or any content in it and use it as a container for transpose maps. The transpose maps could be included in any templates or the default.

Thanks - I didn't know those weren't globally accessible and that you'd have to use the Load command. That will save some head-scratching. My original intention was to locate it as a standard Finder file to upload to my Dropbox so others could just download it. Not that simple but my intentions were good.

[stubbsonic]

I should be more clear, I meant using the File Menu/Load... command (not the load inside the Transpose window). So in a sense, they aren't globally available, they are available by extracting them from another project, or by including them in your template or default template.

The functionality of FROM NOTE __ and NUMBER OF NOTES __ ; and TO NOTE __ and NUMBER OF NOTES __ is a little confusing. I sort of get that you can take map some pattern of notes on the keyboard to a different pattern of destination notes (i.e., From and To), and those patterns can be different numbers of notes, but it's not very clear how it works.

For this map, starting at Ab1 (1.33 octaves below middle C) and having 36 notes is plenty to encompass this map. You could make variations to have brush kits or other versions of snares, cymbals, and substitutions for the basic elements.

[stubbsonic]

I should mention to Mike H that this symmetrical map is manageably playable with one hand.

[philbrown]

The functionality of FROM NOTE __ and NUMBER OF NOTES __ ; and TO NOTE __ and NUMBER OF NOTES __ is a little confusing. I sort of get that you can take map some pattern of notes on the keyboard to a different pattern of destination notes (i.e., From and To), and those patterns can be different numbers of notes, but it's not very clear how it works.

For this map, starting at Ab1 (1.33 octaves below middle C) and having 36 notes is plenty to encompass this map. You could make variations to have brush kits or other versions of snares, cymbals, and substitutions for the basic elements.

I got that from p. 549:

Transposing each pitch to any other pitch
The Custom Map option can also map each pitch to any other pitch, completely independently from the same pitch in other octaves. This allows you to create a transpose map to easily change drum tracks from one drum machine to another.
To set up a drum machine transpose map:
1 Select the Custom Map transpose option.
The Custom Transpose options will appear.
2 Type in 128 in both the From: and To: options.>>>>>

[mikehalloran]

I should mention to Mike H that this symmetrical map is manageably playable with one hand.

I did notice that. Thanks!

The Korg offers some possibilities that my keyboards don’t offer. It will be interesting to see how that works out. I’m hoping that it brings back what I used to enjoy with my Yamahas.

I played drums for many years and didn’t sell my kit till after I bought my RX-15. I always preferred playing along to the grid in real time, keeping what I like and discarding what I don’t over step programming. My Yamaha drum machines were great for that, my Alesis, not so much (ok, I never liked my SR-16).

As I think about it, I have never liked step programming. Most of my percussion tracks over the last couple of decades began in a notation app.

[HCMarkus]

MIke, it sounds as if you and I have followed similar paths with drum pads... Yamaha RX, Alexis SR16 and (soon) the Korg PadKontrol.

The one thing I loved about the SR16 was the A/B/Fill foot switch. The SR16 was my go-to for drum machine live gigs for a number of years... hit the switch while in pattern A and it would immediately go to the A Fill pattern, then move to the B pattern when the fill was done. Hit the switch again, and the B Fill pattern was triggered leading to the return to pattern A. Pretty cool for live, as you could program a lengthy fill, but switch to it early or late in the pattern for a longer or shorter fill. And, unlike with a fully-programmed song, if the dancers didn't hit the floor until the second verse, the tune could easily be extended.

[mikehalloran]

MIke, it sounds as if you and I have followed similar paths with drum pads... Yamaha RX, Alexis SR16 and (soon) the Korg PadKontrol.

The one thing I loved about the SR16 was the A/B/Fill foot switch. The SR16 was my go-to for drum machine live gigs for a number of years... hit the switch while in pattern A and it would immediately go to the A Fill pattern, then move to the B pattern when the fill was done. Hit the switch again, and the B Fill pattern was triggered leading to the return to pattern A. Pretty cool for live, as you could program a lengthy fill, but switch to it early or late in the pattern for a longer or shorter fill. And, unlike with a fully-programmed song, if the dancers didn't hit the floor until the second verse, the tune could easily be extended.

Yes, we were on similar paths except that I have never played live with a drum machine. I toured for years in acoustic groups that did not use drums.

I liked many things about my SR-16. The pads are ok enough and as a stand-alone drum machine, it’s not bad. Never using it live, the A/B/Fill weren’t that useful to me except when I was composing an infomercial under deadline—and then it was a major timesaver. Hard to remember that I was doing those on analog tape pre-DP 2.71.

It was advertised as a programmable MIDI controller but has some bugs that were never addressed by the promised firmware upgrades — to my knowledge, none were ever released. There is functionality in the manual that it just can’t do. A friend asked to borrow it years ago and I’ve never asked for it back—never will. I find it odd that you can still buy them new and hope that the SR-18 is a lot better.

[Babz]

If you are interested in exploring the keyboard drumming option, here's the symmetrical map I came up with.

I'm originally a drummer, and thus much better at playing with sticks than finger drumming, but I do use the keyboard to drum sometimes when I just don't want go to an entire different part of the studio and get behind the e-drum kit. With that disclaimer, a few comments...

Seems like stubbsonic's map might be similar to the "IMAP" developed by Dave "Squids" Kerzner of Sonic Reality:

https://www.sonicreality.com/imap.php

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6MAFPh64So

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doj5xlA_Kas

Squids is amazingly good with it, and makes it look so easy. I've never really looked into it much. Also, I don't know what's up lately with Sonic Reality, but they developed all these fantastic products like Ocean Way Drums and Ken Scott Epik Drums based on Kontakt and the IMAP thing and something they called "Infinite Player," but they seemed to have dropped support for all that and now only push the BFD and Reason format. I'm not sure if it has something to do w/ licensing from NI or what, but I have been hoping to see these products return for a long time.

If you want to spend lots of money on your issue, you could look into a finger drumming controller like Zendrum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=765ulm_vVww

Again, finger drumming for me is harder than actual drumming, so this is not my world, but it looks really intriguing and amazing in videos, etc.

Finally, if you're looking for an "outside the box" solution, look into DrumJam for the iPad. It's a really unique approach, and has this cool way you can improvise fills and variations just by dragging left to right on the screen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch0q9t9 ... e=youtu.be

http://www.drumjamapp.com/

Best,
Babz

[Prime Mover]

Wow, that makes A LOT of sense actually. Buuuuut... I've gotten so used to playing in drums on the traditional general MIDI setup that I think this would confuse the crap out of me. Not sure how I miss this, I play some drums as well, and you'd think "snare: left hand" would be obvious, but for some reason, I've never really thought about the fact that I play it with my right hand on keyboard.

I usually do two passes, one with kick/snare and toms with the metronome on, and then one with ride/hat/cymbals.

One suggestion is that before quantizing, check to see where on the beat you're playing on, and you might want to nudge it first. I tend to play a bit ahead when entering it on keys (maybe because it's a little unnatural and I get tense), I often need to select it all and nudge it back a little. This will prevent quantization problems if you end up playing a few notes even more off to the point that it might magnetically be drawn to the wrong subdivision. And I always do a strength percentage when quantizing, never 100% unless I want to sound like a drum machine.

[HCMarkus]

Wow, that makes A LOT of sense actually. Buuuuut... I've gotten so used to playing in drums on the traditional general MIDI setup that I think this would confuse the crap out of me. Not sure how I miss this, I play some drums as well, and you'd think "snare: left hand" would be obvious, but for some reason, I've never really thought about the fact that I play it with my right hand on keyboard.

I usually do two passes, one with kick/snare and toms with the metronome on, and then one with ride/hat/cymbals.

One suggestion is that before quantizing, check to see where on the beat you're playing on, and you might want to nudge it first. I tend to play a bit ahead when entering it on keys (maybe because it's a little unnatural and I get tense), I often need to select it all and nudge it back a little. This will prevent quantization problems if you end up playing a few notes even more off to the point that it might magnetically be drawn to the wrong subdivision. And I always do a strength percentage when quantizing, never 100% unless I want to sound like a drum machine.

As a southpaw, I've always felt awkward playing a right handed drum kit; this is probably one reason I completely suck at playing a kit. That said, drum pads have always allowed me to play kick with my left hand and snare with my right. Years of playing piano and left-hand bass have cemented the "left hand bass/kick" mentality strongly in my mind and muscle memory.

On Rushing: one reason we tend to rush when playing VIs, be they drums or other sounds, is VI latency. Enabling DP's "Sync MIDI" preference can offset this by placing the hits at the time we HEAR them, not the time we play them. I have found that using this option in DP (with small to modest buffer sizes) often eliminates the "need to nudge." But the nudge trick is a good one to remember for sure.

[Prime Mover]

I've had very poor luck with the Sync MIDI offset setting. I have yet to try it on my new computer, but I ran a huge number of tests about a year ago and came up with no consistent result. Maybe I'll try again with my MacPro though.

And you're exactly right about the left hand = kick mentality. I'm an ambi, and play drums right hand style, but when I sit at the keys, left hand drives the bass. Similarly, when playing hand drums (djembe/conga), I use left palm for bass hits, and most drummers I know do the same. So now that I think about it, there seems to be a precedent for "left hand drives the beat" across the board on most things but kit. I actually liken playing keyboard drums to playing hand drums, anyway, as they're more finger-tip oriented.

PS: a Seaboard makes for a friggin killer hand drum controller, btw!

[stubbsonic]

Seems like stubbsonic's map might be similar to the "IMAP" developed by Dave "Squids" Kerzner of Sonic Reality...

I can see a couple similarities, but mine is MUCH older, simpler, and symmetrical.

MANY years ago, I saw a wonderful musician playing keyboard drums with a two-handed map back in the early 90s. His right hand had the kick under his thumb, and the left hand had the same kick under his pinky (both on C) the map went up in parallel from there. He was quite good at it. It occurred to me that having matching hands was a good idea, but putting kick under the thumbs just seemed more elegant. I just built my kit based on the symmetrical map and started playing with it. I first made it on my Ensoniq EPS. The later Kurzweil versions started to do things like subbing out drum sounds (multiple bounce roll samples), velocity layers, and a friend and I did a nice multi-velocity kit (heard on the demo vid).

Once I had the basic map, I could create other percussion maps using substitutions where shakers went in where hats were, different conga hits for kick & snare, etc.

I decided at some point, that the map was too useful to keep to myself, so I posted it on a Kurzweil forum.

Speaking of apps, the Lumbeat "drummer" apps (by Luis Martinez) are step sequencer drum machine apps. What makes them especially good is their "jamming" functions which add incredibly life-like variations & fills to the patterns. They are very versatile if you don't need to mess with tempo changes.