Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

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toodamnhip
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Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by toodamnhip »

I know that an incorrect conversion of a 24 bit file, down to 16 bit is bad form and ends up cutting the unused bits off of one’s audio file..bad!
But when one imports a 24 bit file INTO a 16 bit DP session, does DP just “cut the bits off”, or does it do some sort of “proper” conversion of the data.

Basically, is it ok to drag 24 bit audio into a 16 bit DP session, or am I cutting off bits when doing so?
Thanks
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Re: Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by FMiguelez »

It depends on your set preferences. You can have 16 and 24 bit files happily in the same session without any conversions. The setting you see in the transport window only tells you the bit depth of newly recorded audio or merge operations.

What you can not do is mix sample rates in the same project.
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Re: Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by mikehalloran »

FMiguelez wrote:It depends on your set preferences. You can have 16 and 24 bit files happily in the same session without any conversions. The setting you see in the transport window only tells you the bit depth of newly recorded audio or merge operations.

What you can not do is mix sample rates in the same project.
Wasn’t this new in DP 5.1?
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Re: Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by toodamnhip »

I think i still ned some additional clarification.
Sounds like you’re saying- if I import a 24 bit file, it stays 24 bit and plays fine in a 16 bit file.
So if I do a “merge command” or edit on it, am I truncating its bits in a bad way or is DP doing some sort of math on a merge to translate the bits properly?
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Re: Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by daniel.sneed »

AFAICR, merge behaviour in DP depends on dither option, and project bit depth.
In case of a 16 bit project:
- dither option unchecked, merge will truncate from 24 to 16
- dither option checked, merge will dither from 24 to 16

Not in front of my daw, but dither option may lay in DP audio menu.

BTW, 24 and 16 bits files can play together in the same 16 or 24 project.
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Re: Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by toodamnhip »

daniel.sneed wrote:AFAICR, merge behaviour in DP depends on dither option, and project bit depth.
In case of a 16 bit project:
- dither option unchecked, merge will truncate from 24 to 16
- dither option checked, merge will dither from 24 to 16

Not in front of my daw, but dither option may lay in DP audio menu.

BTW, 24 and 16 bits files can play together in the same 16 or 24 project.
I think you’re right man! So if I don’t want to just chop my bits off, I just check that little box.
If that’s the case, I suppose the next question is how good is DP’s dithering and for me, how good is it compared to iZotope RX. (By the way, without a clear understanding of these issues, what I ended up doing was to dither in RX.
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Re: Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by daniel.sneed »

Glad to help, toodamnhip.

Easy to keep in mind a fact: any calculation within DP is 32bit float, whatever your original may have been.

AFAICT, basic dither in DP, is flat noise.
It is applied while exporting (to specified bit depth) and merging (to project bit depth).

But MW Limiter in DP, has a noise shaping option to 24 and 16 bits.

I can't comment on dither relative strength in RX and DP.
I use both following task convenience.
They have never deceived me about dither. But truncating did.

In my workflow, my last bounce step is generally thru Ozone.
That is to say, very last dithering step is performed by Ozone, set to heavy noise-shaping.
Good results here.

Any different experience report is welcome, though.
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Re: Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by FMiguelez »

TDH, could you not simply set your current 16 bit session to 24 bits instead? You know you can then bounce your final mix to 16 bits. This way you don't even have to worry about dither when merging or creating new audio files at all.
Or is there a good reason to do this gig at 16 bits?
mikehalloran wrote:
FMiguelez wrote:It depends on your set preferences. You can have 16 and 24 bit files happily in the same session without any conversions. The setting you see in the transport window only tells you the bit depth of newly recorded audio or merge operations.

What you can not do is mix sample rates in the same project.
Wasn’t this new in DP 5.1?
Not that I know of. Not too long ago they allowed us to use audio with different bit depths in the project, but I don't think we can mix sample rates. I hope I'm wrong, though...
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Re: Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by Phil O »

I set my projects to 32 bit fp (the extra disk space ain't that big a deal nowadays) and leave it there until it's time to master. I leave any audio I import at its original sample format. I have dithering in DP turned off and for any dithering I do I use iZotope Ozone. YMMV
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Re: Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by toodamnhip »

FMiguelez wrote:TDH, could you not simply set your current 16 bit session to 24 bits instead? You know you can then bounce your final mix to 16 bits. This way you don't even have to worry about dither when merging or creating new audio files at all.
Or is there a good reason to do this gig at 16 bits?
mikehalloran wrote:
FMiguelez wrote:It depends on your set preferences. You can have 16 and 24 bit files happily in the same session without any conversions. The setting you see in the transport window only tells you the bit depth of newly recorded audio or merge operations.

What you can not do is mix sample rates in the same project.
Wasn’t this new in DP 5.1?
Not that I know of. Not too long ago they allowed us to use audio with different bit depths in the project, but I don't think we can mix sample rates. I hope I'm wrong, though...
I think I started a 16 bit file because the project is a CD compilation project for music libraries.
I never thought of just changing the bit rate to 24, hmm. I guess it makes for better processing before mix down. I tend to like 24 bit masters, but obviously, it make me add a step to make 16 bit for CD. Most of the mixes get a 2nd copy in mp3 which uploads to music sups. And CD’s are going away so I will consider changing the sample rate to 24. Anyone able to think of a down side to changing overall file to 24 bit?
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Re: Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by FMiguelez »

I see no downside at all. Actually, I would recommend you set your session at 24 or 32 bFP and kill all your processing worries, especially since no conversions will be made and you can keep native 16 bits audio files untouched.
Whatever NEW audio files you create, those would reflect whatever setting you have chosen (24 or 32bF).

There's a setting in the preferences where you can force DP to convert the bit depth or to leave the files alone. That's the key to what you want.

When bouncing, if you need your masters at 16 bits, set your favourite dither at the end of your chain appropriately, and also set the BTD command to 16 bits in the dialog box.
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Re: Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by mikehalloran »

It was DP 5.12 that let us mix bit depths.

Working With Multiple Bit Depths:
In DP 5.12, you can now freely mix and match 16-bit and 24-bit files and they all will play back and otherwise operate normally. For more information on this new functionality please refer to the DP 5.12 addendum.pdf in your MOTU DP5 Folder
.
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Re: Importing 24 bit file into 16 bit session-what happens?

Post by FMiguelez »

mikehalloran wrote:It was DP 5.12 that let us mix bit depths.

Working With Multiple Bit Depths:
In DP 5.12, you can now freely mix and match 16-bit and 24-bit files and they all will play back and otherwise operate normally. For more information on this new functionality please refer to the DP 5.12 addendum.pdf in your MOTU DP5 Folder
.
So yes, we can mix different bit depths, but not sample rate mixing.

I wouldn't mind having the latter as an added feature. I mean, DP makes SRCs on the fly when I use my 44.1 libraries in a 48 KHz session, so I see no reason for it not to do it with printed files...
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