Time signature hurdles

[spitfire31]

Returning (tentatively) to DP thanks to the 9.5 version, I just spent the better part of a half hour trying to convince it that, yes, this whole sequence is really supposed to be, not in 4/4 but in 3/4 time.

Of course, I've been away from DP for some time and then I've mostly used it for audio or, if MIDI, then in the apparently hardwired default 4/4.

So, being spoilt now by Logic and Live, like a fool I tried dragging the denominator and beat value of time signature display in the Control window. Yeah, after a while I realised – they can't be dragged, QED. But I can drag the tempo numbers right next to it. Go figure.

Instead, I have to go to Project:Conductor Track:Change Meter… and, after typing in my desired numbers, make sure I click the 'End of sequence' radio button. So 1987…

I thought that was it. I thought that I finally had a sequence in bomb proof 3/4 time. Ha!

As soon as I dragged in a 3/4 time MIDI drum clip from EZDrummer – hey, presto! DP tries to be helpful (?) and adds a 4/4 time signature change at the spot where I naïvely dragged my jazz waltz MIDI clip!

So, for every 3/4 clip I drag into my supposedly 3/4 time sequence, I then have to select and erase a pesky Conductor track 4/4 TS marker!

This can't be right, can it? I guess I haven't RTFM right (in fact, 'time signature' isn't even mentioned in the manual index). What did I do wrong? Is it really impossible in a 2017 DAW to tell it, yes m'dear, I really want this entire sequence to be, not in 4/4 but in 3/4 time from start to end, and please don't bother to try to outguess me when I drag waltzy MIDI clips into your innards.

That frustrating half hour really flushed my inspiration down the drain.

Kind regards,

Joachim

[Kurt Cowling]

I suspect the 4/4 time signature is coming in with the clipping from EZ Drummer. If I drag in from EZ Drummer I get the behavior you describe, but if I drag in from Stylus no time signature gets added.

[stubbsonic]

I can understand your frustration. It is a little weird that you can control tempo either from the tempo slider, OR from the conductor track, but the little Time Signature is display only.

As for DP's manual not listing Time Signature, I think, technically the Time Signature is the symbol which reflects the way the Meter is notated. Look for Meter Change in the manual, and I think you'll find it.

Now you can open the Event List for the Conductor Track, and next to the + and - buttons is a pop menu where you can select Meter Change. Rewind your sequence to the beginning and press the add button. Now you can tell it what meter, and even what to base the click on.

As for dropping in Standard MIDI files clips that add a 4/4 meter change, I've not had that problem before. DP wouldn't add that meter in (I don't think). Is it possible that the clips are all in 4/4? You might just try dragging them onto the chunks window, just to see if they keep their 4/4 time signature. If they don't, DP might be adding a step that you don't need.

[Kurt Cowling]

I’ll just added that I set my sequence to 3/4 and dragged in MIDI clips from EZ Drummer that were listed as being in 3/4 time, but they added in a 4/4 meter change (just like the OP described). I’m pretty sure the problem is with the clips coming from EZ Drummer. Might be nice if DP had the option to ignore the meter change info.

[stubbsonic]

It's easy enough to select the added meter and delete it. If it's at the top of the sequence, open the event editor and edit that meter on beat one.

Too bad those clips are all in 4/4. It wouldn't surprise me. SO MANY modern music tools are idiotic when it comes to meter.

[FMiguelez]

This is where I would LOVE to see Logic's functionality in DP: when you drop a MIDI loop from SD or Stylus, for instance, the imported MIDI clip will contain useful info on its name, like the NAME of the loop, where it comes from, and even its meter and version (Stylus).

It certainly beats not knowing what all those little bars are in the GE and having to click on them to find oot.... (<----- Canadian out, my favourite).

As for the changing meters in the OP, I'd do all my importing first, then correct the meter once at the end. It's easy enough to kill them in the TO window, but this behaviour can be useful (unless the OP is working with polymeters, I don't see why he wants to see a 3/4 meter with 4/4 loops), so it should probably be a user preference set somewhere.

Personally, what the OP describes sounds to me more like a feature... Which could/should be defeated by pressing Option while dropping...

[Kurt Cowling]

...unless the OP is working with polymeters, I don't see why he wants to see a 3/4 meter with 4/4 loops

You’ve misunderstood the OP. The sequence meter and the loops are both in 3/4, but 4/4 meter changes keep getting inserted every time a clipping is dragged in from EZ Drummer. It did that for me too, when I tried it (but not from Stylus).

[FMiguelez]

...unless the OP is working with polymeters, I don't see why he wants to see a 3/4 meter with 4/4 loops

You’ve misunderstood the OP. The sequence meter and the loops are both in 3/4, but 4/4 meter changes keep getting inserted every time a clipping is dragged in from EZ Drummer. It did that for me too, when I tried it (but not from Stylus).

In that case, I did misunderstand. Sorry about that, Kurt (and Spitfire31).

Then, it only makes it even worse than I thought. And non-sensical...
If Stylus is not doing it, perhaps it is a EZDrummer thing?

[Kurt Cowling]

..If Stylus is not doing it, perhaps it is a EZDrummer thing?

Yes, that was my point in both my first and second replies in this thread.

[spitfire31]

Thanks for the analyses, guys!

It looks like I have to have a serious talk with the Toontrack devs.

Kind regards,

Joachim

[mhschmieder]

Yes, dragging in MIDI from elsewhere can cause some quirks if the conductor track was part of that MIDI and it either assumed 4/4 and switched to 3/4 after the first bar or two, or was in 4/4.

I generally go to the conductor track and delete the extraneous time signatures introduced by imported or dragged MIDI, but only after first "decoupling" the bars one by one if I'm actually going to adapt a rhythm pattern from one time signature to another.

That is, I break it up with empty bars in between, so that changing to 3/4 doesn't cause a continuous 4/4 pattern to straddle the bars and have downbeats in the wrong place.

As I have worked with the conductor track since hardware days in the 1980's, it doesn't seem at all unnatural for me to spend a lot of time there. Although I own other DAW's, I have tried the approaches you mention, so it's hard for me to take in the shock you got.

Take note also that imported MIDI will often also introduce unwanted key signatures, whether inferred ones or "C Major", but recent DP updates seem to have corrected an issue I had previously with imported MIDI replacing the ones I set in the project myself, which could be confusing and would cause me to do undo/redo a few times while paying attention to see what changes.

[mhschmieder]

As I have also started using EZDrummer for occasional pattern bases before tweaking to make my own patterns, I am trying to think whether I have experienced this specific problem, as I often work in odd meters.

It was quite a surprise to me that I can now drag MIDI directly from EZDrummer to DP (or from Superior 3). For me at least, this seems to introduce fewer artifacts than the old way of dragging from the hard disc or via cut/paste to/from the system clipboard.