Fix it in DP first, or fix it in Finale 2012 afterwards?

Discussion of Digital Performer use, optimization, tips and techniques on MacOS.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
This forum is for most discussion related to the use and optimization of Digital Performer [MacOS] and plug-ins as well as tips and techniques. It is NOT for troubleshooting technical issues, complaints, feature requests, or "Comparative DAW 101."
Post Reply
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Fix it in DP first, or fix it in Finale 2012 afterwards?

Post by FMiguelez »

Hello.

When importing into Finale 2012 music composed with DP, what's the fastest and most parsimonious workflow?

1) Fix the timings in DP first by making everything line up perfectly in the grid by quantising and/or using Adjust Beats, and THEN importing into Finale
OR
2) Import the music into Finale "as is from DP" and fix it in Finale with its tools


My current situation is>
-- I'm working on a long piano piece which currently is subdivided into chunks using the Song Window.
-- Each chunk has a different tempo map. But the tempo maps were created using Record Beats, since the music was recorded wild.
-- My Record Beats taps were not perfect, but seem good enough for DP's QS (but in the GE some notes don't line up to the grid perfectly well. For this, I'd have to either, quantise everything risking losing the nuance of the performance, OR I would have to go note by note using Adjust Beats to keep the performance and make notes line up perfectly to the grid)

In your experience, under those circumstances, what would be the better workflow?

How picky is Finale for music imports? Do notes have to be perfectly pre-aligned to a grid, or does it allow some leeway like DP's QS?

I'm just starting to read the relevant article in the manual, and it seems it is quite demanding in this respect. And this one is a loooong piece of music...

Thank you!
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
magicd
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Fix it in DP first, or fix it in Finale 2012 afterwards?

Post by magicd »

In my humble opinion, notation transcription is something that DP does very well. When DP displays notation it uses an expert system to make choices about how notes are displayed. A good example of this is note splitting in a Grand Staff. DP doesn't use a fixed split point. It analyzes the performance and makes decisions about which hand is playing which note. If you disagree with DPs decision you can over-ride it's staff choice.

In DP9 we added MusicXML export. MusicXML is a file format that is similar to Standard MIDI File but is more graphics oriented. If you export a MIDI file from DP and import to Finale or Sibelius, those applications will need to re-transcribe the MIDI into notation and it will most likely look very different than what you saw in DP. If you export a Music XML file from DP and import it into Finale or Sibelius, the notation should look the same as it did in DP.

Prior to MusicXML the best you could do was use >Smart Quantize in DP to prepare the file for export. Smart Quantize tightens up the MIDI so transcription is easier downstream.

You mention Finale 2012. That sounds like an older version of the program. If Finale 2012 doesn't have MusicXML import, Smart Quantize in DP before you export the MIDI file.

Dave
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: Fix it in DP first, or fix it in Finale 2012 afterwards?

Post by mikehalloran »

To the original question — it depends on your work flow. Some of us work in one and finish in the other.

Finale has had MusicXML for many years. Michael Good, its inventor, is now a VP of MakeMusic and even drops in here from time to time.

Finale 2012 will have an older version of MusicXML. To update XML to 3.1, download the free Dolet 7 plugin.
http://www.musicxml.com/dolet-plugin/do ... or-finale/

Dolet 7 works with Finale 2009 to 2014.5 on Windows and Intel Macs. Its functionality is built into the current Finale 25.4.1.

Many DAWs including Logic Pro X have MusicXML import as well. As one who composes in notation first, I would really like to see that (DP 10, perhaps? Pleeeease????).
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Fix it in DP first, or fix it in Finale 2012 afterwards?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

If I'm scoring for print I'm in Finale start to finish. It is by far the fastest for me. Frodo does DP to Finale. I find correcting and quantizing tedious and distracting to the compositional process.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
RodneySauer
Posts: 168
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:26 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Re: Fix it in DP first, or fix it in Finale 2012 afterwards?

Post by RodneySauer »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:If I'm scoring for print I'm in Finale start to finish. It is by far the fastest for me. Frodo does DP to Finale. I find correcting and quantizing tedious and distracting to the compositional process.
Same here. If I am composing or arranging for musicians, I use Finale start to finish. If I’m recording, I use digital performer. I’m not sure I’ve ever had an occasion to move data from one to the other.
Rodney Sauer
Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
www.mont-alto.com
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Re: Fix it in DP first, or fix it in Finale 2012 afterwards?

Post by FMiguelez »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:If I'm scoring for print I'm in Finale start to finish. It is by far the fastest for me. Frodo does DP to Finale. I find correcting and quantizing tedious and distracting to the compositional process.
RodneySauer wrote: Same here. If I am composing or arranging for musicians, I use Finale start to finish. If I’m recording, I use digital performer. I’m not sure I’ve ever had an occasion to move data from one to the other.
But that's exactly the thing... I want both, a beautiful looking score (Finale), AND a great sounding MIDI performance (DP).

Maybe it is that I'm so used to compose in DP that it feels second nature and I still feel too clumsy with Finale. Editing performance aspects in Finale like velocities, phrasing and tempo feels clunky in comparison.

I suppose I should try learning the parts well and use Finale's Hyperscribe to capture natural performances from the beginning. This piece is quite challenging technically, so I'd have to rehearse it well.

Mike, I bet you're really good at that!
Do you use Hyperscribe much? You're a great improviser, so I suppose this suits you very well?
IIRC, you can tap the tempo with a foot controller, steady or rubato, and Finale will interpret the performance for you based on the settings and the tapping.

Hmmmmm.... We'll see.
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Re: Fix it in DP first, or fix it in Finale 2012 afterwards?

Post by FMiguelez »

magicd wrote:In my humble opinion, notation transcription is something that DP does very well. When DP displays notation it uses an expert system to make choices about how notes are displayed. A good example of this is note splitting in a Grand Staff. DP doesn't use a fixed split point. It analyzes the performance and makes decisions about which hand is playing which note. If you disagree with DPs decision you can over-ride it's staff choice.
I agree. DP seems to be very lenient and good at interpreting a performance with useful notation. I see QS allows for a good leeway where notes don't have to align perfectly to the grid in order for QS to show them correctly.
I love that.

But then, you see Dave? That's an indication... :) I bet MOTU could create a KILLER overhauled version of QS for DP that would put Finale and Sibelius to shame (cough/hint/Ahem) :)
:unicorn: :unicorn: :unicorn:

Thank you for the MusicXML tips. I didn't even know about that... I'll try both ways to compare.
mikehalloran wrote: Finale 2012 will have an older version of MusicXML. To update XML to 3.1, download the free Dolet 7 plugin.
http://www.musicxml.com/dolet-plugin/do ... or-finale/

Dolet 7 works with Finale 2009 to 2014.5 on Windows and Intel Macs. Its functionality is built into the current Finale 25.4.1.
Thank you for all the info and the link, Mike. I'll download it now 8)
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Fix it in DP first, or fix it in Finale 2012 afterwards?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Rarely use Hyperacribe. Most entry is via speedy entry. I have a wired (iHome) numeric keypad on the left and the Apple keyboard w/numeric on the right so entry with either hand is fast. I don't really care much about MIDI playback on those scores. I usually have 6 weeks to write 2 hours fully orchestrated and then go right into rehearsals with live players.

I have worked in several ways and found staying in notation to be the fastest and most accurate. It also allows me to visualize the music and arrange harmonies, rhythms, and everything else much faster.

Sequencing in DP is, of course, "easier" but lacks absolute accuracy. That's not a deficit of DP but the nature of live performance. I'm a pretty accurate player but I ain't "perfect" by any means. By the time I make corrections in the transcription process from DP to F2014.5 (last version I'll ever use) I can be about 30% further along using just Finale.

FWIW, and as you know, I'm not a fan of trying to fool the listener into thinking there's a real orchestra there if there's not. I know it's SOP but I'm also diametrically opposed to the method of using 1000 tracks for every little articulation (again, in a futile effort to trick the listener). If it's a truly critical production they'll pay to hire A-list players, suffer thru VI replications (for low budget productions) or find someone who will work for cheap. Not surely isn't me. Lol
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: Fix it in DP first, or fix it in Finale 2012 afterwards?

Post by mikehalloran »

I used to do Speedy Entry but now that I have only one working arm, I find Simple Entry easier nowadays. Often I’ll sketch in Encore first as it’s a little faster for me and send to Finale via MusicXML before I add lyrics, expressions etc. since Encore’s .xml support is quite limited.

I never compose in DP. Wasn’t much of a keyboardist before my stroke; MIDI guitar and I never got along. I see it in notation and, if the parts are to be played by musicians, will begin and end in Finale.

I don’t use VIs in Finale outside of GPO — just not into Finale as a DAW. If I want to flesh it out or it’s a project for a client, I export the MIDI to DP and go from there, adding tracks, vocals and using VIs as required. Lately I’ve been working on a couple of vanity projects and have been starting those in Band-In-A-Box, again exporting tracks and MIDI to DP for sweetening (they have a Windows Product I could do the whole thing in but I’m not ready to go there).

I tried using Logic as an intermediary — it imports MusicXML — and exporting the tracks to DP. It works more or less but I found it to be a time waster. If DP will export MusicXML, that would be very nice. Till then... what works, works.

Since I became handicapped, I work too slowly to take the commissions I used to (half hour infomercial in 4 Days? No problem). Nowadays, 2 hours in 6 weeks? I can only dream.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
Post Reply