Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

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RobTalbert
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Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by RobTalbert »

I want to route a stereo audio track to a mono track to troubleshoot some phase cancellation in my mix. I think I should be able to configure a send on the stereo track to a mono bundle (say bus 3) and then add a mono aux track with bus 3 as input and the stereo speaker outputs (Scarlet 18i20 USB 1-2 on my system).

Except this doesn't work. Clearly I am not thinking about this right. What do I have wrong? (I read up on sends - pages 771-773 in the DP 8 manual, but I am on DP 9.5)

Rob Talbert
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stubbsonic
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by stubbsonic »

You could just insert the Trim plugin and pan L/R to center. But yea, there should be an option to sum to mono at the send.
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mikehalloran
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by mikehalloran »

This is the reason that nearly every studio uses a monitor controller with a Mono button. Pressing it sums your signal to mono without having to touch the mix or any of the sends.

Even the $59 Behringer and $69 Mackie on this page have that function.
https://www.sweetwater.com/c417--Monitor_Management

For a low budget setup without a sub or where the mains cross over in the sub, either of those controllers may be just the ticket.
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by mesayre »

Can you just use a Master Fader? The folddown function allows you to quickly switch to mono and back again.
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RobTalbert
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by RobTalbert »

Master Fader solution is perfect. Thanks. I am still mystified about why my send configuration does not work, but then I am mystified but a lot of things. :roll:
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by mesayre »

Glad that'll work for you. Can you say more about what happens when you try your send?

I just ran a quick check sending a VI to a mono aux, and it worked. I...

1 - Created a VI track & MIDI track
2 - Muted the output of the instrument track
3 - Created "New Aux track via Mono Bundle" in the send menu
4 - Set the send to Pre-Fader (you must do this or you will hear nothing)
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FMiguelez
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by FMiguelez »

Has anybody noticed the irregularities when summing to mono in DP?

According to my tests, DP´s summing result is different than doing it with other 3rd party plugins.
If you compare the results of nulling Trim against say, the Hofa plugin (or any other brand), the signal does not cancel.

I've tried it with 4 different commercial brands. There's agreement between them all, including DP's own Spatial Maximizer in the way they sum the mono signal. But NOT Trim. Trim won't null out. Same result with summing to mono via an aux send.

I don't know what that means, though. But the difference is NOT subtle... I get signal at -70 dB instead of perfect silence...

Has anybody seen this or know what it means?
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stubbsonic
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by stubbsonic »

I'd guess that different plugins are using different pan law, and/or they are compensating gain downward to avoid clipping when summing L and R together.

If the null is full bandwidth, then nudge a fader to see if the null is just at a different level for one of the tracks.
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FMiguelez
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by FMiguelez »

stubbsonic wrote:I'd guess that different plugins are using different pan law, and/or they are compensating gain downward to avoid clipping when summing L and R together.

If the null is full bandwidth, then nudge a fader to see if the null is just at a different level for one of the tracks.
Exactly!

I failed to mention that I can only get partial cancelation IFF I lower Trim by -2.6 dB. I'm not at the studio now, but I'm almost sure that's the amount that yields the highest cancelation, but even then I still see signal at around -70 dB.

I also find it strange that DP's Spatial Maximizer cancels out perfectly with ALL other commercial summing plugs I've tried, but neither Trim nor Sends will cancel out with any of them, even after adjusting gain to compensate for possible Pan Law handling.
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by stubbsonic »

Now I wonder if it is time related and/or frequency related. Are you seeing any offset of the waveform (early or late)?
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by mikehalloran »

Precision Delay can be used to slip tracks back and forth to resolve (or enhance) phase.
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by FMiguelez »

stubbsonic wrote:Now I wonder if it is time related and/or frequency related. Are you seeing any offset of the waveform (early or late)?
I have not tried printing them, and that's probably a good idea to try next. All my tests have been in real time.
But even if it's a time-related issue, it's still not good because then it means that some latency is not being properly computed, yes?

But it's strange, because as you look for the sweet spot of cancelation with Trim by lowering the gain to compensate for the pan law, it doesn't sound as a time or frequency related issue :shock:
What I mean is that I hadn't even realized this because I was monitoring quite low, and to see the non-cancellation I had to actually zoom in the control group Trim meter. That's how I saw this, mostly by accident. So what's left from the signal still sounds full, like the original, just much much lower, as if it were running out of cancelation juice...

Damn! Now I'm really curious, and I won't be in the studio for a few more days. If somebody is feeling geeky enough, perhaps someone can do a quick test to confirm or refute?

Like I said, I'm seeing this with 2 different summing methods> Trim and summing to mono via aux. These 2 methods, BTW, do cancel against each other.
But not against any other summing plugin, including DP's own SM, but these latter ones all cancel against each other.

-70 dB signal is A LOT to see left when canceling, yes? It's around 20 dB louder than a 16 bit noise floor, correct?

The Trim plugin has a couple of other bugs, BTW (pan pots losing their relative position when making them independent. I wonder if there's something wonky with it... or with my brain perhaps.
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Don T
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by Don T »

Hello,
Plugins may cause latency which will time shift cancelled Fz.

I just did a pink noise null test and trim summed to zero perfectly.
Setup= pink noise file copied to two mono tracks. Bussed to stereo aux.
Invert one file and sum to mono with a trim on the aux bus and it cancels perfectly across all frequencies.

On further testing: If I use trim to invert one of the files (L channel) then trim WILL sum to zero in the Aux trim. If I use the "invert phase" plug-in applied to the file it alters the file and it is no longer identical. A multi-generational test shows the null test gets worse every time the plug-in is applied. So your test protocol becomes very important. I re-tested by assigning both mono channels to the same bus (not using trim to sum) and the files still won't null after the invert plug-in is applied.
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by stubbsonic »

I'm not sure if you were testing what FMiguelez was talking about.

You are describing taking a stereo file with identical L & R, then inverting R and getting full null.

I think FM was taking any stereo track-- then summing to mono through one process (like trim)-- Then also running it through a different process to sum to mono (like Spacial Maximizer)-- and the two resulting mono files would not be identical-- hence the null difference.


Am I getting that right?
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Re: Configure a Send for Sum to Mono

Post by FMiguelez »

stubbsonic wrote:I'm not sure if you were testing what FMiguelez was talking about.

You are describing taking a stereo file with identical L & R, then inverting R and getting full null.

I think FM was taking any stereo track-- then summing to mono through one process (like trim)-- Then also running it through a different process to sum to mono (like Spacial Maximizer)-- and the two resulting mono files would not be identical-- hence the null difference.


Am I getting that right?
You got it exactly right, Stubbsonic :)

All tests were done in real time, and with stereo files.
I did attempt to compensate for a possible Pan Law difference by finding the sweet spot in the Trim plug (which is setting its gain to around -2.5 dB IIRC). That's how you obtain this partial cancelation. Anything more or less than that, brings even LESS cancelation.

So it's like this>
Trim VS Trim = perfect cancelation
3rd Party plugs VS 3rd Party plugs = perfect cancelation
3rd Party plugs VS Spatial Maximizer = perfect cancelation
Trim VS 3rd Party plugs = Partial cancelation only (signal at -70 dB)
Trim VS Spatial Maximizer = Partial cancelation only (signal at -70 dB)


The EXACT same applies as above if you substitute the Trim plugin for summing to mono via aux.

Also, Trim VS Aux summing = Perfect cancelation

I haven't tested the mono summing via bounce to disk yet. I wonder what this one will do?

So I wonder what resulting signal is the "good proper" one... The one that DP gives with Trim and aux summing, or the one the SM and 3rd party plugs give, and also WHY there's such a big difference in the resulting signal...
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