Do Aux tracks provide any ...

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KenNickels
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Do Aux tracks provide any ...

Post by KenNickels »

... performance gains with regard to using direct outs from VI's?

For each MIDI track I have a dedicated audio track ready to go with its input being a direct out from a VI. But with more and more demanding libraries I am experiencing performance problems that don't seem to be addressed by the promises of v.9.13. So I am focusing now on the robustness of my template.

But this fellow, https://youtu.be/c9PF5O_sfjg puts aux tracks into the setup, which,unless I'm missing something, is totally not necessary. But DB being complex, I could always be wrong. Thoughts?
My Box(s): Two Mac Pros 5,1/3Ghz, 12 core, 96GB Ram, OS 10.14.6, One Windows 10 computer, Vienna Ensemble Pro, MOTU Audio Express, DP 10.01, Falcon 3, Eastwest, NOVO Strings, 8Dio Brass, Spitfire,, Symphobia
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bayswater
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Re: Do Aux tracks provide any ...

Post by bayswater »

I've done it both ways, and not noticed any performance difference. Like you I couldn't see the point of adding an Aux in the path when the object is to get from a VI out to an Audio in. My template now routes VI outs directly to Audio tracks so they can be printed in one pass. It makes the template simpler, but the disadvantage is you need to activate monitoring on the Audio tracks until ready to record on them. Grouping the tracks helps keep it simple.
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Michael Canavan
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Re: Do Aux tracks provide any ...

Post by Michael Canavan »

I would also disagree with using as many outs as Kontakt provides. MOTU reps even suggest that in the age of 4 to 12 core machines with 8 to 24 threads it's another area to help allocate resources with. All DAWs I know of use a track for a core or thread, so it's possible to bog down one core with overworking a single track, anyone tossing CPU hungry plug ins on the Master fader can attest to a single track killing DP with seemingly massive amounts of CPU left.
Use as many outs as Kontakt provides for less heavily scripted, less internal FX using Kontakt patches, for stuff like Cinesamples or other resource hogs, the CPU hit from another instance of Kontakt will be less than the resource the scripting uses.
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MIDI Life Crisis
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Re: Do Aux tracks provide any ...

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

As posted a while ago by MagicD...

Large and heavily scripted VI instruments should be in their own instance of the VI, not shared as multiple tracks in the VI. For every such VI instantiation there should be a separate fader in the mixer. This allows DP to access a separate core for each. Smaller instruments and patches can be in a single instance, but larger ones definitely want their own VI instantiation.
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KenNickels
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Re: Do Aux tracks provide any ...

Post by KenNickels »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:As posted a while ago by MagicD...

Large and heavily scripted VI instruments should be in their own instance of the VI, not shared as multiple tracks in the VI. For every such VI instantiation there should be a separate fader in the mixer. This allows DP to access a separate core for each. Smaller instruments and patches can be in a single instance, but larger ones definitely want their own VI instantiation.
There is only so much juggling I can do. Eventually each core of the computer will have to manage multiple threads, multiple tracks, multiple everything. It’s becoming futile to second guess what and where to put things. And if there is a specific methodology that will solve the problem, why hasn’t MOTU provided a white paper on it? After all, this is the era of heavily scripted layered monster instruments. And I’ve spent a lot of time with them over the phone. The trend will continue.

When MOTU came out with version 9.1 I thought, Finally, an answer to my problems: more efficient processing, less system load, more VI’s. That was the promise and the very reason I upgraded. But the actuality was the opposite. I could not decrease the buffer size, I had to crank it up to 1024, and I’m feeling a bit snookered. So actually I think the ball is in MOTU’s hands, because obviously these problems are not anomalous. I cannot read their minds but I wonder if they are considering an add-on along the lines of Vienna Ensemble Pro. What do you think?

I notice you are still on 9.02.
My Box(s): Two Mac Pros 5,1/3Ghz, 12 core, 96GB Ram, OS 10.14.6, One Windows 10 computer, Vienna Ensemble Pro, MOTU Audio Express, DP 10.01, Falcon 3, Eastwest, NOVO Strings, 8Dio Brass, Spitfire,, Symphobia
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Re: Do Aux tracks provide any ...

Post by mikehalloran »

... I could not decrease the buffer size, I had to crank it up to 1024, ...
What OS?

Those of us running the latest build of 9.13 in El Cap or Sierra are able to run lower buffers than those running Yosemite or older. MOTU has posted that this perception is correct. I certainly noticed it.
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KenNickels
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Re: Do Aux tracks provide any ...

Post by KenNickels »

I went from 2008 mac pro with 10.8.5 to 2012 mac pro on sierra. Fresh clean install of everything. I'm still working on the template, with 2 out of 7 VI's loaded. BTW, I never use all 7 or all 8 outs from each. Far from it.
My Box(s): Two Mac Pros 5,1/3Ghz, 12 core, 96GB Ram, OS 10.14.6, One Windows 10 computer, Vienna Ensemble Pro, MOTU Audio Express, DP 10.01, Falcon 3, Eastwest, NOVO Strings, 8Dio Brass, Spitfire,, Symphobia
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doodles
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Re: Do Aux tracks provide any ...

Post by doodles »

Adding a ton of auxes, in order to use every instrument to their own stereo channel, has created huge headaches for us. DP just fades away (YMMV) when we added around 200 stereo auxes. It just couldn't cope. When we whittled it down to about 40 stereos it was a lot happier.

That's not say you will experience this, but for us it meant re-thinking the template for the printing rig.
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KenNickels
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Re: Do Aux tracks provide any ...

Post by KenNickels »

doodles wrote:Adding a ton of auxes, in order to use every instrument to their own stereo channel, has created huge headaches for us. DP just fades away (YMMV) when we added around 200 stereo auxes. It just couldn't cope. When we whittled it down to about 40 stereos it was a lot happier.

That's not say you will experience this, but for us it meant re-thinking the template for the printing rig.
Printing rig? You mean the printing of MIDI tracks to audio?

I would be happy with 40. I'm close to it now with dedicated VI outs paired to audio tracks, no aux's required. So far so good. I must say that MenuMeter has been a big help. For example, The CPU was solidly at 4% with 7 VI's, including EastWest Hollywood Brass and Winds. But as soon as I enabled just one track paired to a Hollywood Strings instrument, it jumped to 12% and stayed there. But thereafter, adding more Hollywood Strings did not raise it any further. So I'm assuming that is just overhead.

So thanks to you guys who wrote about Menumeter in another thread!
My Box(s): Two Mac Pros 5,1/3Ghz, 12 core, 96GB Ram, OS 10.14.6, One Windows 10 computer, Vienna Ensemble Pro, MOTU Audio Express, DP 10.01, Falcon 3, Eastwest, NOVO Strings, 8Dio Brass, Spitfire,, Symphobia
Killahurts
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Re: Do Aux tracks provide any ...

Post by Killahurts »

The only time I use aux tracks for virtual instruments is when I have them in a V-Rack. The aux track gives the ability to automate where the V-Rack can't. Even then, for my large templates, auxes are usually submixes of several instruments. e.g. all the short string articulations, all the legato, short brass, etc.
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doodles
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Re: Do Aux tracks provide any ...

Post by doodles »

KenNickels wrote:Adding a ton of auxes, in order to use every instrument to their own stereo channel, has created huge headaches for us. DP just fades away (YMMV) when we added around 200 stereo auxes. It just couldn't cope. When we whittled it down to about 40 stereos it was a lot happier.

That's not say you will experience this, but for us it meant re-thinking the template for the printing rig.


Printing rig? You mean the printing of MIDI tracks to audio?

I would be happy with 40. I'm close to it now with dedicated VI outs paired to audio tracks, no aux's required. So far so good. I must say that MenuMeter has been a big help. For example, The CPU was solidly at 4% with 7 VI's, including EastWest Hollywood Brass and Winds. But as soon as I enabled just one track paired to a Hollywood Strings instrument, it jumped to 12% and stayed there. But thereafter, adding more Hollywood Strings did not raise it any further. So I'm assuming that is just overhead.

So thanks to you guys who wrote about Menumeter in another thread!
Yep, printing MIDI to audio for soundtracks to be mixed elsewhere. VE Pro outs - so we would have maybe 200 stereos with each sound assigned to a different aux. But it's weird. Even just HAVING that amount of auxes exist (even if not being used) would just kill it... I know the actual printing of tracks would take a lot, but just having these tracks in the template makes it die.
2*5-core 3.46 Intel xeon (32 gigs RAM), 2*dual 2.5 (16 & 32 gigs RAM), DP 8.07, WAVES 9, Lexicon plugs, SoundToys, all Spectrasonics, NI Komplete 9, Vienna Ensemble (extended), LASS, Evolve, Symphobia, etc, Cinesamples, Arturia, cinestrings, all Project Sam
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Re: Do Aux tracks provide any ...

Post by Shooshie »

bayswater wrote:I've done it both ways, and not noticed any performance difference. Like you I couldn't see the point of adding an Aux in the path when the object is to get from a VI out to an Audio in. My template now routes VI outs directly to Audio tracks so they can be printed in one pass. It makes the template simpler, but the disadvantage is you need to activate monitoring on the Audio tracks until ready to record on them. Grouping the tracks helps keep it simple.
I do the same thing. I used to have an aux track for every instrument track, because the instruments all needed to play, but I was only recording one instrument at a time, so how else could I have had them all active without recording them? You had the choice of an audio track or aux track for monitoring, but the audio track had to be record enabled; an aux track merely had to be play enabled. Very simple. But as of DP6? DP7? somewhere back there they added the input monitor to audio tracks, so you don't need to record enable the tracks anymore. That made it so much easier. Just monitor through audio tracks, and when you're ready to record, hit record. If they are grouped, so much the better!

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