Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

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Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

Okay... I'll try to make this quick and get input because I'm a little stymied and need some input.

I am using DP to play backing tracks with a band I'm getting off the ground. So far live players are me (lead vocals, guitar), a drummer (playing to a click) and a bass player.

DP is playing back the following elements:

• Keyboards/Synth
• Occasional SFX (have a motorcycle engine sound in one song)
• Rhythm guitar/acoustic guitar
• Occasional Backing vocals

DP is also playing a crucial role sending MIDI patch changes and controller info to my guitar rig as well.

So right now, in the confines of my rehearsal room, I have made special streamlined chunks for each song and all these elements are retained as separate tracks and then mixed to one MONO output going to the rehearsal PA system. The balance between the elements is adjusted by DP's faders, but it's all going out one MONO output. (I could use another output make this stereo if needed.)

I like having separate tracks and mixing them rather than combined into one audio file, because I can go into the rehearsal room and enable the bass and drum tracks and rehearse and work on my own parts without the rest of the band. Also, if at some point we add an additional guitarist to the band, I can simply mute the guitar backing tracks that the second guitarist would then be playing live.

So that's my rational for mixing the parts within DP instead of bouncing it down first.

But here's my issue:

I'm inclined to get another interface that allows more outputs and grouping backing tracks by stems so to speak. Rather than send one mono output to front of house, I give them the following separate outputs:

1 - RHYTHM/SECOND GUITAR (If they hear a guitar and don't see ME playing it, THAT is where it's coming from.

2 - KEYBOARD/SYNTH/SFX (Self explanatory)

3 - Backing Vocal Parts (Also self explanatory)

Anyway... I'm very much inclined to go this route and break the backing tracks into three separate elements rather than just make a mix of everything on one output as I've been doing. I'm concerned that I can't foresee the proper balance in the room I'm rehearsing in and what I've dialed in may not be right in all cases.

NOTE: I'm sure I can use Auxes and provide the stems above AND outputs with a complete mix as an option depending on venue.

I'd welcome some input from the brain trust here. I know it's risky trusting a FOH engineer at some of the smaller clubs not to screw something as seemingly simple as this system up, but...

ALSO: If I go this route, I'm planning on making an XLR patch panel on the back of the small rack that will contain the backing track system and I'll make cables to connect the balanced TRS jacks on a MOTU interface to XLR connections on the panel which will be clearly labeled. A sound guy should be able to just connect XLRs there no problem. It would be LINE level, but I'm assuming most venues would be able to handle that... or am I supposed to have to step it down to a lower level?

Thanks for any input.

OH... LASTLY... I *could* go stereo on each stem and use six outputs possibly, but don't know really if that buys me anything. Maybe stereo on just the keyboard/SFX output.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by Michael Canavan »

You nailed all the issues.

It's possible to set up both a mono and stereo version of this. Currently I'm working on this.
I still haven't decided on whether or not to use DP for this, big advantage is linear timeline, better CPU optimization and reliability.

You can set up Trim plug ins on all your stereo tracks to allow for clubs that like stereo outs and ones that do not. 8 out is the trick, one for click out so with 7 other tracks you've got enough for three stereo tracks and a mono track. I would at least have one track set up that got a mix of the sequenced stuff. One thing about some venues, they're terrified of anything on a computer, thinking that it will ruin their speakers, so if anything is essential or at least helpful queue wise would have it sent to the headphone out of the MOTU hardware. I've definitely been in situations on stage where the sequencer is buried completely and I'm only relying on the drummer for where I am in the song.

Clubs like mic connections, soundcards for the most part are already balanced outputs, so the main thing that a direct box solves is there, beyond the connection, getting a handful of 1/4" balanced TRS to female XLR converter cables to plug into the back of your sound card is good. Mixers will love you for that. Otherwise the house will waste direct boxes on your sound card, and they might not have six. Can't remember, but it's likely that any sound card you get can give at least +4 and -10 dbu, the mixer will know which they prefer.

Hey at least you're dealing with mostly live, I'm working with sequenced bass, percussion, synths etc. and just a vocalist. Even my guitar and one "synth" are being routed through the laptop. It's almost a guarantee that some show we do will be all vocals. :roll:
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by mwilloam »

Just adding my 2cents and setup that worked flawlessly for 2years of occasional gigs at decent clubs with smart and most importantly, cooperative and easy going sound folks.

5 person group[vox, guitar, keys, bass, drums]. Ran DP off laptop with up to ~15 songs as separate chunks all set to tempos/click and ordered to the set. *828mkiiiHybrid as interface over USB. I ran all of the stage i/o for the group into a 16 channel splitter/snake, one xlr set to me(the 828 and its inputs and a external 8channel adat preamp for FOH) and the other xlr set to the house pa. Usually, most < 16 channels(mics/lines).

Performers used in ears(wired headphones) that were discrete mixes from cuemix on individual busses assigned to hardware outs 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8, HPL-R along with headphone amp where needed. Obviously this allowed for each to have their own custom mix of every live element.

In DP, I left all the chunks as mixes which allowed flexibility(part convenience, part "I'll get to it later"). Besides the chunks, I created 2 V-racks:

One was for sequenced backing tracks(all outputted to a DP virtual bus(ie 11-12). The V-rack had 6 aux tracks, all inputs as bus 11-12 and each with a hardware output for the performers and 828 main out xlr 1-2 which I would send to the house via the splitter/snake.

Second V-rack was simply for click track that each chunk had as audio track(with 8beat count off) outputted to another bus(ie 21-22). This was obviously not sent to 828 main xlr 1-2 since only for our ears and each could have custom level(or even sound). So it was 5 auxes each outputted to the performers' headphones via corresponding 828 hardware outs, which was mixed with the chunk tracks mentioned above and the live elements. So if was mix of DP and Cuemix for the 3.

On top of that DP would output patch changes/MIDI to my line 6 gear(direct i/o'd to snake as well) to change effects on the beat just like plugin automation. We'd hit spacebar and just the let the set run chunk after chunk.

There was only a few times during sound check where I was picky enough(and I am) to alter my individual track levels in the song chunks. So the sound guy would just have his board with the usual strip...kick, snare, overhead, bass, keys l-r, guitar l-r, vocals etc .... but also, backing tracks l-r as stereo feed. It worked really really well.

On top of that, the in ears worked so well we never needed wedges, just ear buds. With a wireless guitar rig I could move around and have distortion/delay kick in via the MIDI.

So not sure what that offers, and I understand that mine was not the most failsafe approach but it worked. Hope that helps.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

Michael Canavan wrote:You nailed all the issues.
I'm just trying to head off, Murphy. Honestly, the thought is terrifying to me, as in the "What can go wrong, will go wrong" thing.
It's possible to set up both a mono and stereo version of this. Currently I'm working on this. I still haven't decided on whether or not to use DP for this, big advantage is linear timeline, better CPU optimization and reliability.
That's a good idea. I like using DP because I've got a good system setup with it so far. DP is sending patch changes to my guitar rig during songs so I don't have to call up patches with my feet while singing and playing. Also, thanks to "Chunks"... I can call up any chunk I want with my MIDI foot controller and control transport. My drummer can also pull up any song and start it playing with an iPad.
You can set up Trim plug ins on all your stereo tracks to allow for clubs that like stereo outs and ones that do not. 8 out is the trick, one for click out so with 7 other tracks you've got enough for three stereo tracks and a mono track.
I'm planning on using a MOTU Ultralite... probably MkIII as they're discontinued (I think) and less expensive. (I should have posted this earlier as it looks like the one I saw on CL is gone. Drat!)

I would at least have one track set up that got a mix of the sequenced stuff. One thing about some venues, they're terrified of anything on a computer, thinking that it will ruin their speakers, so if anything is essential or at least helpful queue wise would have it sent to the headphone out of the MOTU hardware. I've definitely been in situations on stage where the sequencer is buried completely and I'm only relying on the drummer for where I am in the song.
That's a good point. The way I'm setting up my older AudioExpress is using the headphone output into a small headphone amp and then sending the click to the drummer's earphones. The output of the MOTU headphone out just doesn't get enough volume to compete with the drumkit. I'm using another output for MY click which is controlled by an AUX on the drummers click track (which I print to an audio track). I can unmute the AUX and send myself a click (I have a single earpiece in one ear) that I use for intros to songs and any breaks where timing is critical and I want to hear the click. I hadn't thought of a complete mono mix for the band to hear. Fortunately, I don't think any parts are crucial for following along. Maybe just the other guitar part. Almost worried that if I set that up, I won't know if FOH is blowing the mix in the house or not. Although probably bears no relationship.
Clubs like mic connections, soundcards for the most part are already balanced outputs, so the main thing that a direct box solves is there, beyond the connection, getting a handful of 1/4" balanced TRS to female XLR converter cables to plug into the back of your sound card is good. Mixers will love you for that. Otherwise the house will waste direct boxes on your sound card, and they might not have six. Can't remember, but it's likely that any sound card you get can give at least +4 and -10 dbu, the mixer will know which they prefer.
Yep. Again, plan is to go with MOTU Ultralight and put a panel on the rear rack rails with XLR connections on it and then wire those to the TRS jacks of the Ultralight. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the XLR connections should be *male* shouldn't they? On XLRs that means there are 3 pins sticking up inside the recessed cavity, just like the connection on a microphone?

Hey at least you're dealing with mostly live, I'm working with sequenced bass, percussion, synths etc. and just a vocalist. Even my guitar and one "synth" are being routed through the laptop. It's almost a guarantee that some show we do will be all vocals. :roll:
Yeah... it makes it easier for sure. That's why I can probably give up the one output for a mono cue mix of the backing tracks for stage.

I'm kicking myself though. The Ultralite MkIII that was on CL for $300 is now gone. I snoozed... I loozed! I'll have to keep my eyes open for another.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

mwilloam wrote:On top of that, the in ears worked so well we never needed wedges, just ear buds. With a wireless guitar rig I could move around and have distortion/delay kick in via the MIDI.

So not sure what that offers, and I understand that mine was not the most failsafe approach but it worked. Hope that helps.
Every bit helps. I will slow down and digest all that, but I had to add that I'm pretty much doing exactly what you were doing with guitar. I'm also a lead singer, so I have guitar wireless plus wireless headset mic. I can roam the stage and DP controls my entire guitar rig making every effect change, clean/distorted and even sends controller messages to a wah effect so that I never have to rush to a microphone stand, or rush to my pedal board to kick in an effect or work the wah pedal. :)
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by Michael Canavan »

James Steele wrote: Yep. Again, plan is to go with MOTU Ultralight and put a panel on the rear rack rails with XLR connections on it and then wire those to the TRS jacks of the Ultralight. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the XLR connections should be *male* shouldn't they? On XLRs that means there are 3 pins sticking up inside the recessed cavity, just like the connection on a microphone?
Oops yeah, good call!

1.5' TRS to XLR cables are about 8$ on Amazon right now so not too expensive of a solution.
I'm about ready to do this, need to toss at least two more songs at the singer for him to work on, then it's a set! :headbang:
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

Well thanks for your help. This was sort of the reason I was bummed to see DP Control fall by the wayside. I had originally thought of just giving a stereo pair to FOH, and then putting a friend of the band in the audience with an iPad running DP Control's faders (unbeknownst to the FOH engineer) and making adjustments during the set. The great thing about that is that as the project changed from chunk to chunk, the labels on DP Control's faders updated AND I liked that the transport controls were on a DIFFERENT page than the faders. Normally that might be a bad thing, but in a life situation it would prevent accidentally hitting the transport control and rewinding or stopping a sequence in the middle of a live show.

Theoretically this approach would still be possible, but it means I have to downgrade my MacBook to an earlier OS to try to get DP Control working properly. I'll say this... back when DP CONTROL WORKED... it was a beautiful thing!
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

Just bummed I missed out on a pretty clean Ultralite Mk3 Hybrid for $300 obo in my local Craigslist. Ugh. Scouring usual online used sources and not much out there right now. I better pounce on the next one. I had put off buying the one I saw until I could run my ideas past the brain trust here and feel better about the approach I was taking.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by Michael Canavan »

James Steele wrote:Well thanks for your help. This was sort of the reason I was bummed to see DP Control fall by the wayside. I had originally thought of just giving a stereo pair to FOH, and then putting a friend of the band in the audience with an iPad running DP Control's faders (unbeknownst to the FOH engineer) and making adjustments during the set. The great thing about that is that as the project changed from chunk to chunk, the labels on DP Control's faders updated AND I liked that the transport controls were on a DIFFERENT page than the faders. Normally that might be a bad thing, but in a life situation it would prevent accidentally hitting the transport control and rewinding or stopping a sequence in the middle of a live show.

Theoretically this approach would still be possible, but it means I have to downgrade my MacBook to an earlier OS to try to get DP Control working properly. I'll say this... back when DP CONTROL WORKED... it was a beautiful thing!
OK I think this warrants research for sure. I own Push 2 for Live, gives it faders for all the tracks, but your idea is way better. I saw a crazy Metal/Industrial act called Author and Punisher recently and some roadie of his was doing exactly what you describe, checking the mix with an iPad. Probably with some MOTU need to update DP Control, I would definitely use DP for at the very least all tracks where I'm playing guitar, which these days is all tracks.

Oh, and this looks to be a solution for a iPad FOH guy, can't say how well it works, but it's made for iPads only and has a DP optimized layout apparently. http://dawremote.com
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by mwilloam »

What about bussing all your tracks to either cuemix or AVB mixer(not sure what i/o you're using live) and allow the sound person to control levels from there? Then they'd be sandboxed from DP and transport controls. With AVB mixer its easy since you have the streams direct from DP which can then go to hardware or auxes. With Cuemix you could run an optical loop into the cuemix mixer I guess. Then they could control on an iPad via the AVB web interface or OSC for Cuemix. Just an idea.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

mwilloam wrote:What about bussing all your tracks to either cuemix or AVB mixer(not sure what i/o you're using live) and allow the sound person to control levels from there? Then they'd be sandboxed from DP and transport controls. With AVB mixer its easy since you have the streams direct from DP which can then go to hardware or auxes. With Cuemix you could run an optical loop into the cuemix mixer I guess. Then they could control on an iPad via the AVB web interface or OSC for Cuemix. Just an idea.
Planning on using Ultralite mk3 Hybrid... it's not AVB. Although if I split it out to separate stems, FOH guy would have control anyway. I need to look into this. Thank for the suggestion.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

James Steele wrote:ALSO: If I go this route, I'm planning on making an XLR patch panel on the back of the small rack that will contain the backing track system and I'll make cables to connect the balanced TRS jacks on a MOTU interface to XLR connections on the panel which will be clearly labeled. A sound guy should be able to just connect XLRs there no problem. It would be LINE level, but I'm assuming most venues would be able to handle that... or am I supposed to have to step it down to a lower level?
Not much to update yet. I did obtain an Ultralite Mk3 at a good deal used so I've got that setup. I think I'm going to go with a snake instead. I figure 20-25' snake with TRS 1/4" connected to ultralight, and XLR male at other end to connect into the junction box of the house's snake. I've saw an ad online for a complete system that was done this way and the guy I bought my Ultralite Mk3 from put together systems and this was how they did it as well.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by daniel.sneed »

Just my 2 cents, James:
Beware of 48V phantom power may be present in FOH snakes.
Not sure it will fry your Ultralight, but my advice is to face the risk.
While the local sound guy says 48V is off, you still know human error is leading Murphy's law...
Specially with today digital mixers, which may recall 48V from some previous shows...

I would rather go with TRS (stereo type) at both ends.
From Ultralight to line inputs of the local mixer.

In case there is no line input available on the local mixer, then I would go with di-boxes on mic inputs.
In this case, well, you'll need another snake TRS-mXLR.

Or third solution (best, cause does it all): TRS-mXLR snake and fXLR-TRS short cables.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

I appreciate it, but you've sort of confused me. I'm trying to get from the Ultralite's TRS outputs to the inputs for FOH. I thought pretty much all the junction boxes that you plug into for FOH snake will be XLR female... usually they don't have many 1/4" inputs do they?

So the problem then is always what to do about a FOH engineer erroneously sending phantom power and that will FRY the outputs of the Ultralite? I'm not sure how I get around that then in any situation where I have to go from TRS to XLR? So does a direct box somehow block phantom power from getting to what is plugged into it? I also thought direct boxes were mostly for unbalance 1/4" sources.

I'm confused now.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by rickorick »

Hi James I play keys and I use a Mackie 1402 for my keys, it has XLR & 1/4" outputs. Most of
the time I give the sound man the XLRs and I use the 1/4" for my powered EONs but I have had the situation where I got a ground loop because the mixer was on a different circuit from the stage so we switched and he used DIs coming off my 1/4", the Mackie can send balanced or
unbalanced so it didn't matter but in that situation it was good to have both so we had a choice. If the DI is passive the phantom power shouldn't affect it, something like a Countryman DI uses either a battery or Phantom Power. I would think most of the time these sound guys
are using 58s and 57s so there isn't much Phantom Power, sometimes I bring a Shure Beta 87
and they complain that it picks up to much sound and messes with their mix and it uses Phantom Power. I did work a gig a couple weeks ago where they had 414s for drum overheads
but everything else was 58s and a bass DI but I think it was passive.
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