Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

daniel.sneed wrote:James I go on with the risk of 48V on your Ultralite.
Yes I still believe, it might damage your rig in some circumstances.

In real touring world, I think the best affordable solution is to get good passive DI-boxes on each channel.
They will provide:
- total protection against 48V
- total ground loop immunity (thru ground lift buttons whenever needed)
- good level match between Ultralight line output level and mixer mic input level
- no question asked, nor long talking, with sound guy

I use Radial PROD2, stereo passive DI-box (mono one is PROD). Not cheap, nor high-class budget, but good sounding and extremely reliable.
You may have been right. The output level of the Ultralite Mk3 with just a straight TRS to XLR is ridiculously HOT, and there is no facility for switching between +4db and -10db output like in my 24 I/O box. I may have just wasted money on the snake and have to return it or sell it. Frustrating.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

Okay... I have to follow up here... the MAGIC ONE... MAGIC DAVE... saved the day. What I needed to do was launch Cue Mix and then click the Output tab and then engage the "Monitor" button for each channel I want to adjust the level on. Better still, apparently once that's done in CueMix, the the level can be changed at the front panel for all of the outputs for which the Monitor button is depressed at once. At least that's how I understood it. I wasn't in front of the rig a the time, but this is great news! :)
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by magicd »

James,

Just to be thorough, attenuating the output of the UltraLite doesn't protect it from 48V coming back up the pipe. I don't know if phantom power will damage the outputs of the UltraLite or even damage the outputs of direct boxes, but it's a risk best not taken.

If there is a risk of phantom power coming back to the outputs of the interface that means the interface is connected to mic pre inputs. The better solution is to connect the outputs of the interface to line inputs, which would not send back phantom power.

If you do have to connect to mic pre inputs you generally want to pad those inputs and turn down the input gain. Attenuate the outputs of the interface from there.

Also best to just make sure you are not sending phantom power back if at all possible.

Dave
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by rickorick »

I use my Mackie 1402 at rehearsal, I feed the XLR outputs to the mic inputs of a Yamaha board,
I turn the gain/trim pots all the way down. At first I thought I would overdrive the mic channels
but it works fine so I kept doing it that way. And we are using Phantom powered mics and it isn't causing any problems. I have TRS to XLR female connectors from Whirlwind that can go into the line in of a mixer. If I needed to use them at a show I would connect them at the board end of the snake and plug in the XLRs at the stage. Look on the Whirlwind site you'll find the cables there, I like the 10' length and the good thing about XLRs is you can just add a mic cable to make them longer. I know you are using the Ultralite but the idea is the same, you are trying to get from the stage to FOH using XLRs and TRS. I've been on a big show where they were doing the same thing with their keyboard rigs so I figured I must be doing it right.
I hope some of this helps.
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Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

rickorick wrote:I have TRS to XLR female connectors from Whirlwind that can go into the line in of a mixer.
Do you mean female or male? Are line inputs to mixers opposite gender of mic inputs? From what I understand, the end that goes into a microphone is female. The gender of an XLR is determined by the pins (male) or lack thereof (female) *inside* the XLR connector itself.

And I have a snake for this purpose, but it's TRS to XLR Male.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by rickorick »

OK I'm back been on the road all day. From your Ultralite snake you have males going into the snake and back at the board he has males going into the mic channels which are female so you get a female XLR to male TRS that should plug into the line inputs of the board most boards have line in hopefully. You will have to insert the cable between the snake and the board at the board end.
The Whirlwind female XLR has a red collar and the male has a blue one.
I have both they come in handy I use them for my EONs I can come off my mixer TRS and plug into the speaker with the male XLR. The male ones work for my headphone boxes, I have some old Whirlwind headphone boxes that have XLR inputs so I plug the TRS into the stereo output
and run the XLR to the headphone box.
Hope this helps. If you like I could send some photos when I get home.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

I guess I'm just pretty confused here. Basically, I thought I just have my TRS to XLR male snake which plugs into the house snake which runs back to the mixing board and from there on it's the FOH guy's problem? He sets those channels to line level and sets the trims and done deal. Obviously I'm not getting something. :(
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by rickorick »

Hi It's been my experience that the sound guys just deal with mic level XLR so to get line level
to them one has to use DIs or figure out a different way.
What I should have said is for you to get another snake just like the one you have now but
with female XLRs and still have the male TRS so when you get to the gig you plug your x amount
of lines in at the stage then go back to the board plug your TRS jacks into the line level jacks
unplug the XLRs from the mic channels and plug them into the female ends of your snake. Now
you are sending line level down the snake from your Ultralite.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by HCMarkus »

James Steele wrote:I guess I'm just pretty confused here. Basically, I thought I just have my TRS to XLR male snake which plugs into the house snake which runs back to the mixing board and from there on it's the FOH guy's problem? He sets those channels to line level and sets the trims and done deal. Obviously I'm not getting something. :(
I think most sound guys will be fine with your approach (you are essentially providing them with the signal they would get from a DI), but contingency planning is always wise. Carrying a short XLR Female to TRS adaptor snake will allow you to access whatever you run into and, if the FOH board has TRS ins, will allow you to avoid any possible phantom power issues. If the FOH board is clipping at input, you can always reduce output level at your interface.
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Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

Okay... so if I'm understanding this right, the options are:

1) Connect outputs of Ultralite to multiple direct boxes (and perhaps bring some extra XLR cables) and let house take signal from direct boxes.

or...

2) Use the TRS to XLR male snake as I'm doing (I can take level down in Ultralite to -10 etc if need be) which plugs into house snake, but then carry with me a short XLR female to TRS male snake, or XLR female to TRS male adapters for as many channels as I'm going to send FOH.

In the latter scenario, the problem I then foresee is some cranky FOH mix engineer at a club telling me he's not going to mess with the connections to the FOH board. (He would have to unplug the XLR to the channel(s) on his board in order to patch into the TRS.) I could see dealing with someone cranky who isn't going to be cooperative about patching in to TRS on the house board.

Sigh... looking for the way that will ruffle fewer feathers and be as painless as possible. If that's #1, then I pissed away $60 on a snake, but oh well. In the beginning if I'm not thinking of using more than 3 mono stems, I might be wise to just buy 2 more passive direct boxes.

There never is an easy answer I guess... :)
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by rickorick »

Hi Number 2 is your best bet. Also advance the room, I think a lot of sound guys have worked
with bands using tracks. I've been working with tracks for the last 30 years and have kind of
figured out what I need to bring to get the job done.
Try to do a dry run at rehearsal as much as you can for levels and things like that. If you have a used music store near you try to keep an eye out for extra stuff I try to have as much double
stuff as possible.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

rickorick wrote:Hi Number 2 is your best bet. Also advance the room, I think a lot of sound guys have worked
with bands using tracks. I've been working with tracks for the last 30 years and have kind of
figured out what I need to bring to get the job done.
Try to do a dry run at rehearsal as much as you can for levels and things like that. If you have a used music store near you try to keep an eye out for extra stuff I try to have as much double
stuff as possible.
Well thanks for all the advice. I appreciate it. I don't know what it's like in your town, but I get the feeling that some of the FOH sound guys are going to gripe if they have to pull the XLR's from their snake out of the board and patch in TRS adapters. Come to think of it now, many places are using digital snakes so I'd assume they must have some integrated adjustment for mic/line sources.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by rickorick »

If they have a digital board and can do it all at the board that will be great for you. I still see both, I play in a band and we were already to bring a hard drive because they had a digital
board and then they changed for some reason. But if you can talk to the guy before you get there or stop by the room if it's close enough and check it out all that stuff will help.
And if you get return dates you'll know the drill.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by daniel.sneed »

James, in case you are not in a dead line on your project, I may post here some first hand reports within one or two weeks.
I'm experimenting right now on a live touring project where *line output to mic input* is involved. Overall audio quality standards expectations are rather high.
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Re: Using DP for Live Backing Tracks (Stems or Mix?)

Post by James Steele »

daniel.sneed wrote:James, in case you are not in a dead line on your project, I may post here some first hand reports within one or two weeks.
I'm experimenting right now on a live touring project where *line output to mic input* is involved. Overall audio quality standards expectations are rather high.
That would be very helpful! Thanks so much!
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