DP's Spatial Maximizer and applied Mid/Side concepts...

[stubbsonic]

I think this subject should be revised to say "resolved".

The "BAD" bug was just a poorly documented/understood feature of the way the plugin works.

The lesser bug (i.e., the terrible crosstalk/bleed) is a function of the high-pass-- that is an unfortunate way the plugin works.

Here's a brain teaser:

Say you want to compress the sides. So you compress the SIDE track, but not the mids. However, the phase cancellation between the MONO & SIDES somewhat depends on those out-of-phase signals staying "the same but opposite". So what you take out of the side, you end up hearing more in the opposite channel when re-matrixed. Wrap your head around that. I can't.

[FMiguelez]

Thank you all, guys, for your very informative posts.

I am still trying to wrap my head around all this, and I have a couple more tests to run.

I will change the title of the thread as well.

[stubbsonic]

Now that I've done more tests with this plugin, using my "Left, Right, Center" test project-- I'm discovering that it has so much potential... to REDUCE width, or produce unexpected EQ changes where they weren't intended.

I've made a very lean project that has my channel test audio. You can hear how various EQ will either reduce width (by bringing up differences in the opposite channel) or create unexpected EQ changes from MID to SIDE and vice versa.

Please feel free to download my test project (made in DP 8.07). Zipped, it's under 1 MB. It's useful for other tests.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com/misc/MSTestProject.zip

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Thanks, man. We could use a lot more posts like that one!

[FMiguelez]

Please feel free to download my test project (made in DP 8.07). Zipped, it's under 1 MB. It's useful for other tests.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com/misc/MSTestProject.zip

Thanks, Jon! You're awesome

I've been alternating my time with my current gig and my testing. I've done like a million tests too, and I'm still figuring out stuff and trying different things.

I ended up creating a self-made manual M/S Matrix with faders, so I can do different things to Side or Mid freely, and also compare this to the Spatial Maximizer plug-in.

So far, I have a few observations>

-- I can easily reproduce EXACTLY the "mysterious" Spatial Maximizer behaviour I described in my OP with my track M/S matrix.
I think my confusion was mostly due to a misunderstanding. A very common one, apparently.
I thought that 2 mono instruments panned opposite hard L and R would NOT appear in the Mid and would only be present on the Side. But nope. What happens is you end up getting BOTH instruments in the Side AND the Mid.
So M/S works completely different than what I thought. No wonder my expectations were wrong...

So the plug-in behaves correctly in that aspect.

As for the issues Jon found about the reduced width and strange EQ issues, I am seeing that if disengage the Side's HP filter, the loss of stereo width goes away. Depending on the source, it rebalances/repositions the bass in the stereo stage and it can sound weird or at least different, but I can duplicate this same behaviour with my Tracks & Faders M/S matrix, so it's not necessarily a Space Maximizer issue.

At first I HATED the filter because I was trying it in an orchestral piece where the VCs and DBs are panned normally, as they are seated in an orchestra, towards the right of the stage. If I use that HP filter on the Side, my stage imaging gets ruined because the bass now sounds more to the center and the right side sounds empty.

So I'm learning that, as usual, the results can be unexpected depending on the source.

This is big news to me because the M/S concept does NOT work AT ALL as I thought it did.

This article REALLY HELPED clearing my misconceptions about the whole thing.... (thank you so much for this, Stubbs!)
https://www.justmastering.com/article-m ... -part1.php

So a lot of people think that the Mid is what sounds in the center and the Side what sounds panned to the L or R, but this is NOT really true! It all depends on the particular source and its internal Freq/Time/polarity interactions. It's all about correlation (still reading up on that).
Nice! I am still wrapping my head around all this. I can feel I'm just about to get it...

That is a GREAT article worth studying. It will clear ALL misconceptions!

[FMiguelez]

Wow! I'm really having fun playing around with my M/S matrix.

This really lends well itself for MANY creative mixing effects! It's wonderful to be able to treat the stereo field like this. Very powerful.

Right now I'm trying "pumping the stereo field from center to the sides" with a side-chained compressor. So I have this thick pad that seems to open the center and move to the sides every time the kick hits

Applying to either channel EQ, phasers, gates, distortion, reverb, etc can yield very interesting music and sound design results.

I should really get back to writing... You know, my real job as a composer