How does DP do this?

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waxman
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Re: How does DP do this?

Post by waxman »

I'm finding with a Hi Hat the process needs a little more oversight. The front of the wave forms get cut off. Also open hi hats end up being cut in two if the hat is not played with even fade. I end listening to the groove in 8 to 16 bar phrases to make sure its right. Still this cuts the process time in half.

Is there a process that I could take the kick and snare MIDI notes and line up the individual soundbite hits to the MIDI notes?

Thanks again Robert. Nice job on the turtorial.
waxman
DP9.5, Macbook Pro (2018) Mojave, Slate VMS mic, Everything Bundle, Dual Raven MTI 2, Apollo Twin Quad, UAD Arrow, UAD Satellite Octo Tbolt and all the UAD plugs, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate & Arturia V Collection 6, Maschine Studio MK3 Hardware, NI Komplete Kontrol 61s MK 2, Spectrasonics Ominisphere, Superior Drummer, BFD3, Ozone 7, Altiverb, Sound Toys, Waves, Final Cut X. PT 11.
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Robert Randolph
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Re: How does DP do this?

Post by Robert Randolph »

philbrown wrote:I hope this isn't too far afield - Robert or anyone -
Say you're quantizing a drum kit and the song is a medium blues shuffle or a swingy hip-hop type beat. How do you guys deal with that at the quantizing stage? I'm working on two songs right now that are exactly that. In this case, both are recorded to a click track. The hip-hoppy one we just tracked drums on yesterday with a drummer that is really good, but not Jim Keltner (surprise!) so this is all very timely.
Experiment with using tuplet (3/2, or 3/4) and the swing parameters in the dialog.

Another thing that I usually prefer to do is to always have the 'Strength' value set fairly low (25%). That lets me iteratively quantize things, so I can slowly narrow things in to what sounds good with repeated quantize passes.
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Robert Randolph
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Re: How does DP do this?

Post by Robert Randolph »

waxman wrote:I'm finding with a Hi Hat the process needs a little more oversight. The front of the wave forms get cut off. Also open hi hats end up being cut in two if the hat is not played with even fade. I end listening to the groove in 8 to 16 bar phrases to make sure its right. Still this cuts the process time in half.
Could you post the hi-hat track, or perhaps privately get it to me? (wav via dropbox or similar would be ideal)

I've done literally 100s of tracks this way in DP and very rarely have an issue like this, but I do know some clever ways of making things work. It does depend on what the specific issue is though.

The most consistently useful technique is to: duplicate the track, apply a band-pass plugin to it at like 1000hz-5khz at 24db/octave, find beats, copy beats to the real hi-hat track, then proceed as usual. This helps get rid of the sharp transients and that low-frequency 'splash' in high-hats that trick the algorithm.
waxman wrote:Is there a process that I could take the kick and snare MIDI notes and line up the individual soundbite hits to the MIDI notes?

Thanks again Robert. Nice job on the turtorial.
I do not think this is possible, not even with grooves.

Why would you want to do this though?
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waxman
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Re: How does DP do this?

Post by waxman »

Robert Randolph wrote:
waxman wrote:I'm finding with a Hi Hat the process needs a little more oversight. The front of the wave forms get cut off. Also open hi hats end up being cut in two if the hat is not played with even fade. I end listening to the groove in 8 to 16 bar phrases to make sure its right. Still this cuts the process time in half.
Could you post the hi-hat track, or perhaps privately get it to me? (wav via dropbox or similar would be ideal)

I've done literally 100s of tracks this way in DP and very rarely have an issue like this, but I do know some clever ways of making things work. It does depend on what the specific issue is though.

The most consistently useful technique is to: duplicate the track, apply a band-pass plugin to it at like 1000hz-5khz at 24db/octave, find beats, copy beats to the real hi-hat track, then proceed as usual. This helps get rid of the sharp transients and that low-frequency 'splash' in high-hats that trick the algorithm.
waxman wrote:Is there a process that I could take the kick and snare MIDI notes and line up the individual soundbite hits to the MIDI notes?

Thanks again Robert. Nice job on the turtorial.
I do not think this is possible, not even with grooves.

Why would you want to do this though?
Yes I can get you the Hi hat track... Does the strength percentage change how much of the front end of the attack is cut off? Setting the beat detection threshold is the level that triggers the front end of the attack correct? Maybe I need to cut the louder notes first and then the quieter ones...

Why would you want to do this though?

When I cut the drums with BFD3 using a live hat and sometimes live crash or ride the audio from the mic is 10 to 30 ticks ahead of the MIDI notes. I assume this is something to do with the VI. The drummer is a groove monster and has great time. His feel musically moves around so I have to be careful not to quantize the life out of it. But looking at the wave form and MIDI note they are not lined up and I can hear it. When I move the hat it gets locked... So if I could split notes and have them go to the snare and kick that may work. That said even with beat detection doing more then 8 bars at a time gets weird unless I quantize the MIDI. But then there goes the feel. So using the split notes then quantizing the hat and them moving the hat where needed seems to be what works at this point. Takes me a lot of listening to the groove.
waxman
DP9.5, Macbook Pro (2018) Mojave, Slate VMS mic, Everything Bundle, Dual Raven MTI 2, Apollo Twin Quad, UAD Arrow, UAD Satellite Octo Tbolt and all the UAD plugs, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate & Arturia V Collection 6, Maschine Studio MK3 Hardware, NI Komplete Kontrol 61s MK 2, Spectrasonics Ominisphere, Superior Drummer, BFD3, Ozone 7, Altiverb, Sound Toys, Waves, Final Cut X. PT 11.
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philbrown
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Re: How does DP do this?

Post by philbrown »

Robert Randolph wrote: Another thing that I usually prefer to do is to always have the 'Strength' value set fairly low (25%). That lets me iteratively quantize things, so I can slowly narrow things in to what sounds good with repeated quantize passes.
Great info- I didn't realize it would work incrementally like that.
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philbrown
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Re: How does DP do this?

Post by philbrown »

Robert Randolph wrote:
waxman wrote:Is there a process that I could take the kick and snare MIDI notes and line up the individual soundbite hits to the MIDI notes?

Thanks again Robert. Nice job on the turtorial.
I do not think this is possible, not even with grooves.
Couldn't you create a groove from the MIDI track(s) and then apply that groove via quantize to the soundbites (assuming they're split out to individual hits)?
2020 iMac 27" 3.6GHz 10 core i9 • Mac OS 12.2.1 • DP 11.04 • UAD-8 Octo card • Midas M32R

Plugs: UAD•Slate•Scuffham•Flux IRCAM•NI Komplete•Klanghelm•Waves•Spectrasonics•Arturia•Soundtoys•Nomad Factory•PSP•Stillwell•Cytomic•Korg•Five12•GForce
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waxman
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Re: How does DP do this?

Post by waxman »

philbrown wrote:
Robert Randolph wrote:
waxman wrote:Is there a process that I could take the kick and snare MIDI notes and line up the individual soundbite hits to the MIDI notes?

Thanks again Robert. Nice job on the turtorial.
I do not think this is possible, not even with grooves.
Couldn't you create a groove from the MIDI track(s) and then apply that groove via quantize to the soundbites (assuming they're split out to individual hits)?
Thanks Phil... that would work. However there becomes a point where getting something done on a "auto" scheme is not worth it. A good example is Melodyne vs. DP Pitch. DP pitch is straight forward and non destructive. Melodyne is 5 extra steps unless you need it for multitimbral fix.

I had used beat detection in the past on run into these issues. I started just taking the song in sections and sometimes 8 bars or more of hihat could just be scooted forward. That process on a song is pretty fast for me. I still need to do things in short phrases when it sounds wonky. What Robert helped me with was using the quick key and threshold detection to do the splits. At that point I need to line it up with the MIDI kick and snare. All together it's not a bad process and I also do some fixing on the MIDI tracks as I go. I think it's about as good as it's gonna get at this point. DP is still amazing at all this...
Thanks again to Robert
waxman
DP9.5, Macbook Pro (2018) Mojave, Slate VMS mic, Everything Bundle, Dual Raven MTI 2, Apollo Twin Quad, UAD Arrow, UAD Satellite Octo Tbolt and all the UAD plugs, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate & Arturia V Collection 6, Maschine Studio MK3 Hardware, NI Komplete Kontrol 61s MK 2, Spectrasonics Ominisphere, Superior Drummer, BFD3, Ozone 7, Altiverb, Sound Toys, Waves, Final Cut X. PT 11.
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Robert Randolph
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Re: How does DP do this?

Post by Robert Randolph »

philbrown wrote:
Robert Randolph wrote:
waxman wrote:Is there a process that I could take the kick and snare MIDI notes and line up the individual soundbite hits to the MIDI notes?

Thanks again Robert. Nice job on the turtorial.
I do not think this is possible, not even with grooves.
Couldn't you create a groove from the MIDI track(s) and then apply that groove via quantize to the soundbites (assuming they're split out to individual hits)?
This actually works really poorly in DP for aligning audio to MIDI, rather than copying a 'feel'.

FWIW, Cubase has almost identical functionality that works great. Im not confident enough to say that DP's implementation is broken, but it certainly does not work well for the exact thing waxman is after.
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waxman
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Re: How does DP do this?

Post by waxman »

Robert Randolph wrote: FWIW, Cubase has almost identical functionality that works great. Im not confident enough to say that DP's implementation is broken, but it certainly does not work well for the exact thing waxman is after.
Yeah Cubase 9 is coming on strong. They seemed to have lifted much of what is great about DP. The other Company is PreSonus. The System 3 is a strong eco system. I REALLY hope MOTU aligns with Slate for the controller or builds their own. Companies that create strong eco systems with great DAWs, touch controls will be the winners. DP has the hardware and DP is still the best software they just need one more piece a controller.
waxman
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Robert Randolph
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Re: How does DP do this?

Post by Robert Randolph »

waxman wrote:
Yes I can get you the Hi hat track... Does the strength percentage change how much of the front end of the attack is cut off? Setting the beat detection threshold is the level that triggers the front end of the attack correct? Maybe I need to cut the louder notes first and then the quieter ones...
Beat detection and Beat sensitivity are just 2 different ways of enabling beats on things. They each use different criteria for determining what a 'beat' is. Neither one will change where a beat marker is placed.

Strength does not change how much is cut off the front, it affects the % of quantization that's done basically.
waxman wrote: When I cut the drums with BFD3 using a live hat and sometimes live crash or ride the audio from the mic is 10 to 30 ticks ahead of the MIDI notes. I assume this is something to do with the VI. The drummer is a groove monster and has great time. His feel musically moves around so I have to be careful not to quantize the life out of it. But looking at the wave form and MIDI note they are not lined up and I can hear it. When I move the hat it gets locked... So if I could split notes and have them go to the snare and kick that may work. That said even with beat detection doing more then 8 bars at a time gets weird unless I quantize the MIDI. But then there goes the feel. So using the split notes then quantizing the hat and them moving the hat where needed seems to be what works at this point. Takes me a lot of listening to the groove.
Hmm. Does just shifting the whole track not help? Quantize, merge, nudge.
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waxman
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Re: How does DP do this?

Post by waxman »

Yep I do shifting and pulling back all the bites. When drummer is playing a little ahead of the beat going into a new section I just have to choose that chunk of hi hat and line it up... when he is right in the pocked for a section sometimes 16 bars the hi hat may fluctuate 10 to 20 ticks. It's not bad but when I line it up with the MIDI it's so locked in the groove is fierce. So I CAN'T just take a whole song and quantize the hat unless I do the MIDI also... then is just feels like a machine.

I adapted your tutorial and it is working fine. Saves me lots of cuts... I align by shift and pull back all the bites to get the 20 or so ticks from the front of the soundbite. In the SE window I open the MIDI track and the hat track. I'm also right there to fix any MIDI. So I just take sections and make sure it sounds musical. It's working great and is about twice as fast at before. I think it's part of doing fast percussion sounds. I don't notice it on guitars and keys... or anything with slower attack.
waxman
DP9.5, Macbook Pro (2018) Mojave, Slate VMS mic, Everything Bundle, Dual Raven MTI 2, Apollo Twin Quad, UAD Arrow, UAD Satellite Octo Tbolt and all the UAD plugs, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate & Arturia V Collection 6, Maschine Studio MK3 Hardware, NI Komplete Kontrol 61s MK 2, Spectrasonics Ominisphere, Superior Drummer, BFD3, Ozone 7, Altiverb, Sound Toys, Waves, Final Cut X. PT 11.
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