MusicLab's New "Double Tracking" Not Possible In DP?

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Armageddon
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MusicLab's New "Double Tracking" Not Possible In DP?

Post by Armageddon »

I just downloaded the new v4 demos for MusicLab's RealLPC, RealStrat and RealEight guitars. One of the new features on their electric guitar VIs is "double tracking", where it emulates two separate guitar tracks playing the same MIDI track, which you can then pan hard left and hard right, as you would with two real double-tracked mono electric rhythm guitar tracks. First, I tested out the VIs in AU Lab. When selecting the double tracked (RealEight actually has double-tracked and quad-tracked versions) versions of the VIs, which have "2" or "4" in their titles, AU Lab did what I assume most DAWs would also do: automatically create two mono tracks from this instrument, both operated by the same MIDI input and outputting a very convincing "double-tracked" rhythm guitar sound when you play it.

Unfortunately, as most of you know ... this doesn't happen in DP, since even 9.12 still can't seem to utilize mono VI tracks. When you select, say, "RealLPC 2 mono (stereo)", it loads up the instrument as one mono track and doesn't play any sound, though it receives MIDI. When you select "RealLPC 2 stereo (stereo)", it loads up a mono track as a stereo track, which does output audio ... but still isn't operating as intended. It seems DP just isn't capable of loading up the double-tracked version of the instrument properly (just like it can only load up Kontakt or Superior Drummer as a stereo instrument and not a multi-output instrument, as it loads up in other DAWs). I even attempted to use the "Instruments With Options" command in DP, which allowed me to create two instances of "RealLPC 2 mono (stereo)" controlled by two MIDI channels simultaneously ... but again, this resulted in two mono instances that weren't capable of outputting sound, controlled by two different MIDI tracks. Doing the same with "RealLPC stereo (stereo)" gets the same results as if I were adding each track manually.

Similar VIs, like Amplesound, achieve the double-tracking effect in one instance of the VI (though I'm not sure how it allows each side of the stereo double track to be recorded to its own mono audio track for processing with different amps). I feel like I'm overlooking something. I even spoke to Sergey at MusicLab about it, but I haven't heard back from him yet.
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David Polich
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Re: MusicLab's New "Double Tracking" Not Possible In DP?

Post by David Polich »

Whether the double-tracking feature works or not, the fact is that these double-tracking
modes are an epic fail. Real double-tracking consists of a guitar player playing a part twice.
The variations between the two takes are what makes double tracking so cool. In a guitar VI,
the "double tracked part" is simply just another instance of the instrument with some randomization to certain parameters applied. Its nothing like real double-tracking.
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Babz
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Re: MusicLab's New "Double Tracking" Not Possible In DP?

Post by Babz »

I don't own many Waves plugins, but Reel ADT was just too cool not to own.

True, nothing sounds *exactly* like the real thing, but this emulation of the Abbey Road technique is one of the best.

As for the topic at hand.. I can't remember the last time I loaded an instance of Kontakt (or any VI) that wasn't stereo. Will have to check it out. Bummer, if what you say is the case.

Babz.
Last edited by Babz on Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Armageddon
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Re: MusicLab's New "Double Tracking" Not Possible In DP?

Post by Armageddon »

Babz wrote:I don't own many Waves plugins, but Real ADT was just too cool not to own.

True, nothing sounds *exactly* like the real thing, but this emulation of the Abbey Road technique is one of the best.

As for the topic at hand.. I can't remember the last time I loaded an instance of Kontakt (or any VI) that wasn't stereo. Will have to check it out. Bummer, if what you say is the case.

Babz.
RealADT: different kind of double-tracking. :D

MusicLab's electric guitar VIs are meant to imitate double-tracking rhythm guitars, where you end up panning one side hard left and one hard right, as two different audio tracks. Other VIs, like Electri6ity for Kontakt, achieve this by loading two instances in a multi inside Kontakt, pre-panned hard left and right, and you can mute one side or the other to record just the left-side or right-side, then amp the audio tracks. In MusicLab's case, it's supposed to load up two instances or outputs of the VI (?) being controlled by the same MIDI channel/track.

I did some nosing around on here and found an old discussion regarding multiple outputs in EZDrummer 1. It seems that was resolved by using Bundles ... unfortunately, it doesn't seem like you can do that with MusicLab's stuff.

(EDIT: I tried setting up multiple outputs in Bundles to see if that was actually the problem. It seems that MusicLab's VIs are only showing up as stereo instruments, despite the fact they are supposed to -- according to the user's manuals -- provide additional outputs in "Double tracking" mode. It also seems to be the case in Pro Tools 12.6.)
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Babz
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Re: MusicLab's New "Double Tracking" Not Possible In DP?

Post by Babz »

Ha! You DO realize that in this thread we have discussed using *real* double-tracking on a *virtual* guitar called "Real" Guitar, and a plugin that creates a *real* "imitation* of an *artificial* double tracking process. Real artificial. Unreal!

Welcome to the future.
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Babz
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Re: MusicLab's New "Double Tracking" Not Possible In DP?

Post by Babz »

"The kingdoms of experience
In the precious wind they rot
While paupers change possessions
Each one wishing for what the other has got
And the princess and the prince
Discuss what's real and what is not
[There are no plugins] inside the Gates of Eden"

-- Bob Dylan
Armageddon
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Re: MusicLab's New "Double Tracking" Not Possible In DP?

Post by Armageddon »

Babz wrote:Ha! You DO realize that in this thread we have discussed using *real* double-tracking on a *virtual* guitar called "Real" Guitar, and a plugin that creates a *real* "imitation* of an *artificial* double tracking process. Real artificial. Unreal!

Welcome to the future.
That only occurred to me after my last post! It is indeed bizarre, and we're not even done yet: these are all emulations of things originating on analog tape, meaning that somewhere in there, there's a whole other layer of emulation involved, I think ...

Meanwhile, I finally did get it figured out. It goes like this:

Select an instance of "RealLPC 2 mono (stereo)" as an instrument track. You'll instantly notice that it outputs no sound on its own.

Create two mono audio tracks.

Go into Bundles. You'll see that RealLPC 2 mono (stereo) has two outputs. Make two new mono outputs for it.

Now go to your two mono audio tracks. Select the two mono RealLPC 2 mono (stereo) outs as their inputs. Make sure the inputs are active.

You can now route MIDI to RealLPC 2 mono (stereo) or play it and hear the "doubled" track. What threw me was, RealLPC 2 mono (stereo) can't output audio unless you route its outputs via Bundles. Very, very strange.

Unfortunately, this illustrates a new problem, one which is wholly MusicLab's problem: RealLPC 2 mono (stereo) can only load a 44.1 kHz/16 bit sound bank. Not a problem if your project sample rate matches, but a huge problem if your DP project is anything higher than this (the differing sample rates and bit depths end up making your guitars sound about an octave higher). Fortunately, you can get around this by using "RealLPC 2 stereo (stereo)", which loads up the correct sound bank. It works about the same as RealLPC 2 mono (stereo), but this is where the routing gets a little wonky:

Load up an instance of RealLPC 2 stereo (stereo).

Create a new mono audio track.

In Bundles, you'll once again see that RealLPC 2 stereo (stereo) has two outputs. You'll only need one (for some reason, the other output puts out the same channel). Create a new mono output, move it all the way over to the right-hand output of RealLPC stereo (stereo).

Now, go back to your mono audio track and make RealLPC 2 stereo (stereo)'s output its input. Make sure the input light is on.

Now, in your mixer, pan RealLPC 2 stereo (stereo)'s main instrument track hard left and pan the mono audio track hard right -- those are your doubled guitar tracks. This should work about the same for all the other v4 MusicLb electric guitars -- though I don't think I'm brave enough to try to route RealEight's quad guitar outputs ...
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Babz
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Re: MusicLab's New "Double Tracking" Not Possible In DP?

Post by Babz »

I'm glad you found a solution! I've been so busy troubleshooting some other problem that I haven't had a chance to look into this. (I was going to suggest the Trim plugin as a workaround... But it sounds like you grokked the solution.) I will try to look into this at some point.

Best,
Babz

P.S. I believe Reel ADT *does* have options for panning hard left and right and can create a simulated stereo rhythm guitar effect quite nicely (it's really the best double tracking plugin ever, IMO), but again, have spent the last two days trying to solve a different third party problem (which I won't go into since it's not DP's fault) so haven't had time to look at Reel ADT either. :banghead:
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Graywolf
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Re: MusicLab's New "Double Tracking" Not Possible In DP?

Post by Graywolf »

I think I’ll stick to the “old fashioned” way of double tracking. Copy-paste-humanize. lol
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