Vintage King 47 Shoot Out

[mhschmieder]

I may find myself looking at this sooner than later -- such as, by early to mid November.

I'm behind schedule as always, due to too many commitments, but expect to start recording sax and clarinet parts by then. I just haven't been happy with my current mics for those instruments and long felt I needed some specific vintage tube mics -- especially for alto sax.

I almost bought a Coles 4038 on sale a week or two ago, for drum room duties, guitar cab, and tenor sax, amongst other things (including brass instruments), but what holds me back is the nagging feeling that I would regret not having bought a matched pair instead -- though it's probably OK to buy two separately and be confident they'll work well together.

Anyway, other than the Coles 4038, and eventually some high-end omni's from DPA or Earthworks, I'm really well set for top quality mics by now, except for additional tube mics besides my Peluso P12. So really this VMR from Slate kind of fills that hole, at less cost than a single additional tube mic.

I'm really only focused on improving my mic coverage of woodwinds at this point though, and especially clarinet and sax families as my Sennheiser MD441 seems pretty good on flute (what it is renowned for; though some like it on clarinet as well). I am hoping someone on this forum records those instruments and has VMR (or the equivalent tube mics) and will provide feedback. I like smooth and warm vs. harsh or bright, but dark is good also.

[waxman]

This thread is continuing in General Recording which is probably the right place for it. James maybe you want to delete or move this over there. Phil Brown put most of it there...

thanks waxman

[philbrown]

Sorry, I typed a response but must not have hit submit.
Here's the link to the new thread specifically about Slate VMS and VMR:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=62502

[waterstrum]

Just checking in about how the Slate sim works.
Is it a real time simulation that I will hear as I record? Latency... etc.?
Or, is it a plug in to be used to modify the recorded sound?

[waterstrum]

Yes, I know it includes "Mic" and "High Quality Pre Amp".

[philbrown]

Just checking in about how the Slate sim works.
Is it a real time simulation that I will hear as I record? Latency... etc.?
Or, is it a plug in to be used to modify the recorded sound?

I guess it was pointless starting a new thread about this.

From Slate's site:

LATENCY FREE PROCESSING
The Virtual Microphone System software consists of the Classic Tubes microphone module, which contains eight classic tube microphone models, the FG-73 British discrete preamp module, and the FG-76 German tube preamp module. None of these processing blocks add any latency to the audio signal, so if you use a low latency interface with VMS you can track through the VMS software without any audible latency.
To accomplish this, we recommend a Thunderbolt or fast USB interface, recording at 96khz with the lowest buffer size possible. The combination of the 96khz sampling rate and low buffer size ensures the lowest possible latency.

[buzzsmith]

There's a very active group on Facebook and Steven Slate comments with amazing frequency.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1566611 ... et&fref=nf


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[philbrown]

There's a very active group on Facebook and Steven Slate comments with amazing frequency.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1566611 ... et&fref=nf

Thanks for the tip, Buzz! I must be an OK guy, 'cause I just got approved, phew.

[Babz]

Just getting around to this thread…

About 10 years ago I did my own mic shootout as part of a review of the M-Audio Sputnik microphone (a $600-ish tube mic) for Electronic Musician magazine. Unlike the Vintage King shootout, which includes 7 different mics, I was comparing just the one mic to a U-47. Also, the Sputnik did not bill itself as a straight up knockoff of the U-47.

So, while my experience is not exactly the same circumstances as the Vintage King shootout, I did learn a few things which I will try to elucidate in my comments to follow:

- First, I get why they think the 3-part harmony thing was a way to cram as much sonic variety into their short example, but if we are to be given only one example, I find such density makes it harder to hear what's going on. I would have preferred a solo voice.

- You really need to have examples on multiple different kinds of voices (male, female, soft, loud, etc.) and other instruments. What I learned in my tests is that some sound sources sound more similar than others when comparing mics. For example, two mics might sound nearly identical recording a clarinet, but radically different recording a piano. The harmonic complexity of the source material can make all the difference. This can be especially true with something as unique as the human voice.

- In the quest for an exact clone, it is important not to lose sight of the fact even if you had a mic that sounded *exactly* like a U-47, and the U-47 may be the standard to beat, (if there is such a thing), there may be many voices where another mic might actually be better for that particular person. Which brings me to ...

- Even if your clone mic sounds slightly different from U-47, you can often make up for these differences by placement or EQ. In real life, you are not just mindlessly pointing a mic at something. You work with the tools and get the best sound you can. Some voices might benefit from being more off axis, others might require more proximity, etc.

- This "shootout" seems like a thinly veiled infomercial for the Slate product.

- Notice that in the Youtube comments where it says: "Learn more about the shootout and get the raw files by clicking here:" the bit.ly link actually takes you to some political blogger page (The American Prospect). Somebody's idea or a prank, or were these guys hacked by f society? )

[Note: "f society" is a reference to the TV show Mr. Robot, for those who don't know.]

FWIW, here is a link to my Sputnik review:

http://emusician.com/gear/1332/m-audio-sputnik/37397

Unfortunately, on older articles like this, EM has broken the links to my audio examples, but I can send them to you if you PM me. If there is interest, I would be happy to give them to someone to post for everyone, if someone has place to host them (?). I found it interesting comparing a $600 and a $10,000 mic. The main thing I learned is that you need to test with a variety of voices and instruments to really discern the differences.


My 60,000 cents, FWIW,
Babz

[philbrown]

Good post and excellent valid points, Babz.

[buzzsmith]

I have the Sputnik and find it very, very good for most vocalists.

Unless...a female singer is singing in the range around an octave above Middle C.

That's when it sounds a little harsh. Could very well be that is just the natural sound of the singer in that range!

Buzzy

And, I am back ordered for the Slate VMS. Maybe within 2 weeks or so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[waxman]

Just getting around to this thread…

About 10 years ago I did my own mic shootout as part of a review of the M-Audio Sputnik microphone (a $600-ish tube mic) for Electronic Musician magazine.

- In the quest for an exact clone, it is important not to lose sight of the fact even if you had a mic that sounded *exactly* like a U-47, and the U-47 may be the standard to beat, (if there is such a thing), there may be many voices where another mic might actually be better for that particular person. Which brings me to ...

- This "shootout" seems like a thinly veiled infomercial for the Slate product.

Babz

I love my Sputniks...

The genius of the VMS it's not cloning a single mic. An original U-47 is not always the goto mic. It can sound so muddy on the wrong singer. I use the VMS similar to why I record an Guitar AMP and a DI. Or even a keyboard audio out and the MIDI.

The voice is usually the prominent sound of most songs. To be able to shape it at any point in the production process is brilliant. Exact clone or not I give the sound of the VMS 95% reproduction. So I am getting a mic locker full of great sounding mics for $999.

I own a Blue Bottle with all the caps that clone the 47, 251, 87 and more. I bought it for 7 times what the VMS cost just for the ability to change to different mic clones. The Blue Bottle sounds great and definitely overdriving the power supply give the same saturation.

The VMS sounds every bit as good. But step up in ease of use makes it a superior system. There are many VMS "tests" being done with various sources. Just scan the net.

As for an informercial. Everything Slate does is an informercial. He is a master salesman. That does not make his products any less great. Obviously I am a Slate raving fan. But Slate gear is changing the way I work. It's revolutionary. The guy has great a vision and the ears to get it right. Having a genius like Fabrice does not suck... I truly believe Slate is a disrupter. I wish him huge success.

[Shooshie]

I pretty much agree with Waxman about Slate the salesman and visionary. Visionaries tend to be natural salesmen, because it's that vision that infects all their potential customers. If you can bring a vision to life, you can communicate it to someone else.

That said, I agree about the microphone "shootout." Didn't take long for me to realize they were selling the Slate mic emulator. Especially all the comments on each mic, which sounded a little contrived. I mean, how are we supposed to hear what they are hearing in a YouTube vid? Did they EQ it so we would "hear" what they heard? How many people watch a vid like that and admit that they just don't hear what the guys are talking about?

For that matter, any comparison that starts out talking about the legendary U47, with references to Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, etc., had best tell the whole truth: that U47 was plugged into an RCA control board with some kind of rheostat, and some kind of tube amp blasting signal to a Scully Lathe, which was over there scratching grooves into a substrate of some kind. You really can't leave out anything from their voices to your ears, so you'd better include your cheap TV speakers or record player speakers, or whatever you were listening to in 1958.

And let's not forget that there have been some legendary recordings made on Shure SM57s, which cost (today) about $99 each, and whose primary selling point is that you can run over them with the tour bus and still use them at the next stop.

So... the takeaway from what I'm saying here is that if you like a variety of mics, you'd be crazy NOT to buy Slate's emulator. It's not a matter of whether it exactly duplicates some legendary mic — you can't do that without that Scully lathe, remember? — but it's all about the fact that it will give you a huge selection of mics to go with, among whom you will find at least a half-dozen that you will love in various situations. Put that U47 in there, with or without the Scully, and you may not even like it at all! But you'll find something of Slate's to like; guaranteed. It doesn't have to sound like a U-anything or an SM-anything. It's a Slate. And some legendary recordings are going to be made with Slate's mics, and future listeners will make the mistake of believing that if they use that same mic, they'll also make a legendary recording.

Stick a Shure SM57 in the hands of young Paul Simon, Paul McCartney, Janis Joplin, Nat King Cole, Frank Sinatra, or (you get the picture), and you'll still get legendary recordings. Great mics can enhance those sounds, and they may even make the engineer legendary too, but they were not the make-or-break factor in any of those recordings.

Bottom line: you bet Slate is a salesman, and you'll find something to like about his products. But all this sales bullsh•• is just about playing on your emotions and insecurities to make you think that certain gear is going to make you better at your job. It might make certain aspects of your job EASIER, if you know what you're doing, but it rarely improves the chances of a recording becoming legendary.

Shooshie

PS: What I love about certain expensive mics is their rejection factors. What do they NOT pick up?

[Martini Hill]

Well said Shooshie! Great points but your "rejection factor" point really resonates with me.

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk

[labman]

I have a VMS still sealed in box here. Just no time except for orchestration type stuff right now. (Dont smack me Waxman! )

The thing I learned from the shoot out is that I want a telefunken U47. So much for retirement.