Metering Recommendations?

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Phil O
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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by Phil O »

Rick Cornish wrote:What would be the advantage (if any) of running an external hardware meter, either digital or analog?
What are you guys using?
If there's an advantage to external hardware metering, I'm not aware of it. Placebo effect, perhaps?

I like MLoudnessAnalyzer from Melda, but I really think the metering you have should do the job jus fine. I would ask your guy for numbers. You want it a little hotter? By how much? 3dB? 4? Then mix hotter by that amount. The mastering engineer I use has guidelines for how he prefers files and I just follow the guidelines and there's never been a problem. Ask for specifics. JMHO.

Also, +1 on calibrated monitors. I can usually get to within a couple dB with just my ears after working with calibrated monitors for so long.

Phil
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Phil O
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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by Phil O »

Rick Cornish wrote:Is anyone using K-Meter?
http://www.meterplugs.com/kmeter
I think the K metering system has some strengths as well as some weaknesses. In his book, Katz talks about ballistics, weighting, etc.- all good but I don't need a set of different calibrations -12, -14, -20, etc. If I want to mix hot, I mix hot, or if I want to mix soft, I mix soft. I can look at the flipping meter and see where -12 is. I don't need Bob Katz pointing a flipping finger at it. Or what if I want -13? What then Bob?? [rant over]

I do however agree with the need for standards and think there are better options:

http://www.tcelectronic.com/loudness/br ... standards/
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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by Rick Cornish »

Thanks, Phil! Appreciate your perspectives.

I was sending stems of WIP and finally a mixed track (sans sync sound and V/O) to my editor who was doing the composite mix inside Avid. Call me old school, but I've always been reticent to crush mixes. I put enough compression on individual tracks and groups to keep things consistent, but am a fan of dynamics. I don't think it's a signal-to-noise issue, because my chain is about as quiet as it gets.

On reflection, I just think this editor is used to working with library music (that's gone through mastering) and not work-in-progress from a composer (which hasn't). Turning it up is easy, though I don't like to do that until I've had time to actually finish writing the track and then spend a few hours on a mix. This particular project was exacerbated by a ridiculous deadline and an epic storm that knocked out power to my home and studio for five days. I finished writing the track and a first-pass mix in headphones while powering my system on a generator, then had power restored in time to pull an all-nighter finishing the mix in time for a lay-back the morning of the premiere.
Last edited by Rick Cornish on Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Phil O
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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by Phil O »

Rick Cornish wrote:Call me old school, but I've always been reticent to crush mixes. I put enough compression on individual tracks and groups to keep things consistent, but am a fan of dynamics.
Bravo, Mr. Old School. I'm with you 100% on that.

BTW, do check out Melda's free bundle. It includes MLoudnessAnalyzer and the upgrade to paid version is pretty cheap. I think it was around $50.

Phil
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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by monkey man »

My attitude exactly.

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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by Shooshie »

Phil O wrote:
Rick Cornish wrote:Call me old school, but I've always been reticent to crush mixes. I put enough compression on individual tracks and groups to keep things consistent, but am a fan of dynamics.
Bravo, Mr. Old School. I'm with you 100% on that.
It's all a matter of taste and what you hear. You can do a lot of compression before the dynamics give way. It helps to get the unevenness out of a voice, that tiny wobble that sounds immature, but that even the best singers do from time to time, for whatever reason. Just that momentary lack of focus. Compression helps mask that while leaving the dynamics.

Of course, "crush" and "compress" are at opposite ends of that fader/knob. Then there's "slam" with a limiter which renders the end user's volume knob fairly useless and makes a song sound like a room full of loud appliances all running at once.

Now, a comment of a different color:

I love Bob Katz, and I have read Mastering Audio more than once. What I like about it is that it establishes reference points for every aspect of digital audio, so that you are not left with stackable questions about things beyond the basics. But I don't always do things by the book. It's sometimes just a matter of knowing your stuff. For an analogy, it's like shifting gears in a sports car without using the clutch, because you know your ears will tell you where to put the gas and your hand will get it just right. It's not recommended practice, yet it's just something you can do. You don't know how to take a transmission apart and put it back together, but you know how to do THAT. So when an expert who can assemble a transmission says don't EVER do that, you just say, "yeah, I know." Then you don't do it, except for those times when you do.

Or, to bring it back to a more musical example, when you're playing in a small ensemble and there is a pitch problem, and the flutist yanks out her tuner and says "it's not me, because I'm exactly on pitch. See?" My response to her is "what temperament is that tuner using?" (of course it's equal temperament) Then I remind her that we're an ensemble, not a keyboard, and we can play our intervals in precise temperaments where even our 3rds and 6ths sound in tune, but that it requires some maturity and decision making when we start modulating. At that point she'll either tap her tuner and say "I'm right," or she'll listen and start trying to play like a pro.

My point? The better you know the rules, the better you are at breaking them, or at resetting the rules for a higher context, or just at ignoring them altogether and using your ears. And I know that saying something like that opens up a whole can of worms countered with debate about where to draw the line, and how unprofessional it is (or the counter-counter argument that "real pros don't need no rules"), and I really hope it doesn't go there, because that's not at all what I want to get across here. It's a whole lot simpler than that: it's just that some folks can get there quicker without losing quality, and some folks can't. Sometimes I'm a member of Group A, other times I'm in Group B. Digital Audio isn't like analog; Analog is based on physics and common sense. Digital starts with physics, then turns it upside down with lots of arbitrary choices made by engineers when computers were slow, based on the best info available at the time, and we branch outward from there. Knowing your tools, and the rules, you may find rules of thumb that get you there quicker. There's nothing wrong with that!

And that was a long :sorry: setup to advocate for the well-applied rule of thumb, which can be pretty mind-bending itself, yet respect for the facts, physics, and phun of digital audio is always paramount.

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Phil O
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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by Phil O »

Shooshie wrote:I love Bob Katz, and I have read Mastering Audio more than once. What I like about it is that it establishes reference points for every aspect of digital audio, so that you are not left with stackable questions about things beyond the basics.
I hear you, Shoosh. I don't know what it is about that guy, but he just gets under my skin. I've read Mastering Audio as well, and although there's some good info in there, I just feel like he's bragging throughout the book. Guess it's just me.

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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by Rick Cornish »

Big thanks, Shooshie and Phil, for your input and ideas. I think you hit the nail on the head that the issue of loudness has evolved dramatically from analog to early digital gear to today's audio "in the box."

It reminds me of a project I produced in 1979 at Sound 80, in Minneapolis. Even though it was in fly-over land, Sound 80 was a very respected studio, by the standard of the time. Tom Jung (who went on to found DMP) was chief engineer, the rooms all had big Tridents or APIs and outboard gear overflowed the racks. So it wasn't a big surprise when some tech-types showed up one day from 3M in St. Paul. Along with their pocket protectors, they brought in the prototype of what I believe to be their first digital audio tape machine. They suggested we mix to it in parallel with our 30ips 1/4-inch analog, and we jumped at the chance.

Throughout the 12+ hour mix session on our funk project, the 3M tech stood quiet guard next to his machine, watching intently and occasionally making occasional adjustments with a tweak. If I remember correctly, the machine had both VU meters and LED peak displays. I still remember his warning to provide extra head room at input as "terrible things" might happen if we were to go over digital 0. Even though today's systems are light years beyond that early machine, I think that experience made a lasting impression.
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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by James Steele »

mikehalloran wrote:
It comes bundled with both Ozone Advanced and RX Advanced have it but have never really explored its potential. Perhaps next project...
FWIW, it's on sale for $100 for the next 6 days along with some other iZotope stuff:

http://offers.izotope.com/100k-facebook-like-promo.html
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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by Rick Cornish »

James Steele wrote:FWIW, it's on sale for $100 for the next 6 days along with some other iZotope stuff:
http://offers.izotope.com/100k-facebook-like-promo.html
Thanks, James! Checking this out.
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stratology

Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by stratology »

IIRC, Bob Katz recommends the newer LUFS metering, rather than his own K-metering, these days.
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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by labman »

Hey there Phil O ! Just a brief note on Bob K. I can understand your perception.

Knowing Bob personally, and having eaten in his home, I can tell you that it is probably his almost overwhelming enthusiasm about all things audio, paired with his truly giving spirit that might make it seem like he is ramming things down our throats all the time. LOL

Anyways, I remember maybe 15+ years ago or so, when Bob was responding to either me or one of the engineers myriad of questions. It was with his typical, 'you ask me a one sentence question - here is my 5 page response' type answer. I replied, 'you know Bob, you should really write a book'. (And I am sure many others whom he had helped, made the same suggestion.) So from what I understand, that book, is a collated bunch of answers from his tons of emails and online bulletin board / site responses. Perhaps that makes his book 'read' a certain way, differing from a more traditionally written book.

I have met few folks who get as much done as Bob. Tires me out just thinking about his list of accomplishments. Yet he is aways helping folks propel themselves forward. I am 60. Bob is 67??? So he aint that much older than me. Yet every time we talk I seem to learn something.

So from my perspective, Bob really truly wants us all to do great work.
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Phil O
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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by Phil O »

Well that's good to hear, Labman. In today's world we "get to know" people in non-traditional ways - TV, books, newspaper, internet to name a few, and each of those has it's own filter. I'm glad that with the filters removed Bob is a better person than the one I've perceived. Thanks for the post.

Phil
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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by mikehalloran »

Rick Cornish wrote:
James Steele wrote:FWIW, it's on sale for $100 for the next 6 days along with some other iZotope stuff:
http://offers.izotope.com/100k-facebook-like-promo.html
Thanks, James! Checking this out.
Insight is bundled with Ozone Advanced. If you click the bottom of that link, you'll find that Ozone Advanced is on sale for $449 — or is bundled with Alloy 2, Trash 2 and Nectar 2 Production Suite for $499. That's less than the upgrade prices from older versions of those same tools.
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Re: Metering Recommendations?

Post by Phil O »

They just sent me an offer to upgrade to Ozone 7 (advanced) from Ozone 6 (not advanced) for $200. Does that sound like a good deal?
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