Ample Bass Upright -- might be most realistic one yet

[mhschmieder]

Quick update: once I get past the intro section, I am in keys that require going down to "D", so only VSL covers that range.

AcousticSamples AkousKontr is otherwise a good match for cumbia and heavily staccato-based playing, and has a similar timbre to VSL but slightly warmer. Not quite as good of a note ending and attack overall, but there are adjustments in AkousKontr that I haven't explored yet.

I think I'll be able to use EQ to take care of my qualms with the all-staccto part played by VSL's Upright.

[toodamnhip]

The Ample Bass really sounds great to me,in case anyone missed it Re-Peat a user who posts on VI-control did a great sketch with it,check it out.

http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... pleABU.mp3

That sounds amazing for a VI.

RE: Mark, what's wrong with the walking bass? Are the notes too long? From the above example, it sounds like that could be the case. Is it velocity based? Would it respond to breath control? If so, you might be able to use that for walking bass.

Shoosh

Nice finger sounds, decent tone, dynamics cool but potentially a bit overblown. And the held notes need better programming on their vibrato. They’re too dead. Hard to say what is programmer deficiency and what is VI deficiency when hearing demos like these.

[mhschmieder]

I didn't think there was any vibrato in Ample Bass until looking at the user manual again, and seeing that the mod wheel is programmed for this (not surprising). I haven't tried it yet, as Vienna doesn't typically do it that way. As far as I can tell, the raw patches have no vibrato at all.

I have finished the upright bass on four more songs on my album; just three more to go at this point. Pretty much sticking to four articulations in VSL, as mentioned earlier.

Only once I got to the "Linus and Lucy" cover (which I'm doing in a Brasilian style) did I encounter possible application of performance repeats on the same note, during that famous second vibraphone solo in the piece (which doesn't show up in the shortened version used in the Peanuts special). But I didn't like what VSL's fast portato performance repeats did to the note attack, so stuck with the standard portato patch, which I have programmed to avoid repetition problems.

Ample Bass has a key switch for repeating a note. I think you're supposed to use that on its own rather than repeating the actual note. I haven't tried it now; I only just noticed it in the user manual.

[mikehalloran]

On first hearing, I really like the sound of it as a solo instrument. Full of character, it sounds as close to real as any I've heard or played. It's not the most even instrument—a good thing in this context.

I dislike it just as much in an ensemble, the problem being that it always sounds like a close or multi-mic'd solo bass. Basses never sound like that in a combo, not even to the player.

I don't know that I hear it as a plywood bass. I've heard worse solid basses and better laminated including my '51 Kay S-59 Swingmaster. What I mean is that I cannot pick out a particular characteristic as indicating plywood. Its unevenness doesn't sit well in any of the demo'd ensembles. My 5 string Kay was my symphonic and jazz bass, not my two carved basses.

Perhaps, if I had a need, I'd get it and futz around with mic and other settings but there's nothing on the horizon. Still, it is interesting. Thanks for the heads up!

[Shooshie]

Hard to say what is programmer deficiency and what is VI deficiency when hearing demos like these.

And THAT is why people have a hundred VI libraries on their hard drives, but use 3.

Most flute or sax demos are made in such a way as to treat a deficiency as a special effect. An overblown sound, for example, becomes a focal point in a jazzy little number that focuses on overblowing sounds. Most wind libraries fail at the simplest of things:

• Crescendo
  Diminuendo
  Legato
  Tenuto
  Staccato
  Scales

Do those things and you'll hear artifacts that immediately identify them as VIs. Since those are basic musical elements, the demos avoid the basic stuff and go for showy techniques that are less likely to reveal their roots. Older VIs (and remarkably a few current ones) were 100% velocity based, and you simply could not do a crescendo from your starting velocity.

When I was a kid, we had stacks of 45 rpm and 78 rpm vinyl records. Among them inexplicably were two demo discs for electric organs. ("electronic" doesn't fully describe those early cabinets full of vacuum tubes, whirling discs, and heavy, fabric insulated wiring.) Those guys were aces. Even as a kid listening to the demo I got the feeling that I should check my pockets. It was a sleazy business, but it sold organs, and that paved the way for what we have today, for better or for worse.

Get your hands on one of those organs, and the feeling was always "this is IT? That's all it DOES?" Then you realized that the ace on the demo knew every nuance of every stop on that keyboard. What sounded like unlimited possibilities turned out to be exactly its limits. Most VI demos today are very similar to those.

The antidote? Always listen for the basics above. When you hear them, listen for repetition and programmed characteristics that give them away as VIs. That's the hardest thing to do in a VI, and it's why VSL is so expensive and Wallander is so complicated (but effective). Sample Modeling's entrées are pretty complex when you drill down into the options, but they've done a good job of keeping the important stuff on top.

My active VI list is pretty short:

• VSL (and a LOT of it)
  Wallander Instruments (everything he sells for independent Mac installation)
  Sample Modeling (various solo instruments)
  Synthogy Ivory (the New York Steinway, though I have all their pianos)
  AAS: Tasman 4
  AAS: Ultra Analog
  All the MOTU bundled VIs. (They're handy, fast, and you can get an astonishing range from them)

I have at least a dozen others including several entire extended orchestral collections. But they mostly sit there unused, because in the final mix they just don't sing.

Shooshie

[mhschmieder]

I'm exhausted after so many note-by-note MIDI CC edits! I've skimmed the other responses and appreciate all the useful insight everyone is adding to this thread. I'll respond in depth a bit later though, as I need to take a breather after so many hours of staring at tiny fonts in DP!

I am now 100% done with the upright bass parts for my twelve-song jazz album. I will not be replacing these with a live upright unless I get negative feedback from trusted ears. As mentioned earlier, I'd have to buy a hip-shot extender for the one I have, and I also haven't yet gotten around to buying the mics that I've picked out for upright recording (I have placeholders, but not for serious album work).

The biggest challenge turned out to be the simplest tune, which I wrote back in 1984 (or maybe 1986) as an exercise in applying everything I had learned so far in jazz swing lessons for archtop guitar, fretless bass, and clarinet -- all of which I was studying simultaneously at the time.

For those who know gypsy swing, the problem is that almost every note needs a separate articulation! And as I didn't quantize the part, I couldn't just take the pattern and apply it cookie-cutter style -- though deeper knowledge of how to use Quantize Groove might quickly achieve such results in DP.

The guitar has to be dry and choppy with emphasis on the 2 and the 4; whereas the bass emphasizes the 1 and the 3 and has quick pickup notes on the 4 using typical dotted swing rhythms. So that's a LOT of edits for key switches!

The results are wonderful though, as finally this song has the bounce that it never had before and which I was desperately striving for. The original from 1984 didn't have it for sure, and I was surprised I was able to resurrect this song and also make it fit in with newer material without seeming out of place. But I applied everything that I've learned since that time about pocket, groove, space, dynamics, etc.

Needless to say, Vienna Instruments Upright is the only library up to the task, for this material. A couple of other libraries might be tweaked to get similarly useful results, if only they had employed a hip-shot extender.

Mike, I'm familiar with those 5-string Kay models, and am amazed you could wrap your hand around them, but then the Kay uprights are usually narrower as they typically are designed more for the country swing player. But yours are old; the new models are a different manufacturer who bought the name and the stencils. Their lineup is smaller; not sure if the ones I tried are comparable. They make a maple model, which is more for the jump swing players and has a lot of "snap" to it when slapping.

Speaking of slapping, Vienna Instruments Upright, and this new Ample Sound Upright Bass, are probably the only two libraries that have extensive coverage of slapping, ghost notes, etc., via key switches for the most part. Maybe Orange Tree's Pear Bass as well; I forget. So I'm still seeing potential use for the Ample Bass in non-jazz projects.

[mhschmieder]

Shooshie, your WX5 to VSL hints are quite interesting. I decided to follow Beat's advice for this particular album, as the material was already entered note-wise and fully arranged, and as his advice is a big step forward from the usual clutter I am faced with when a library has too many ways to switch modes.

I agree with Beat that the mod wheel is not the way to go, for sample set switching, as one can't tell where one is very easily -- the same would apply to some of the controllers on the WX5. And if I was starting from scratch, I'd probably easily access the nine low-octave notes that serve as key switches in his custom VSL preset concept, but that would work better on a keyboard than using the octave keys on the WX5 to reach "down low" (due to insufficient feedback and thus likelihood of errors).

Your ideas about velocity ranges for BC seem quite likely to work, however, so I may give those a try on the next album project ("next" meaning the next one I work on, as I have several in rotation, as opposed to the next time I create new material from scratch). The sfz articulation is quite important for winds, and trivial to achieve in the Sample Modeling instruments using CC11 or BC at higher than Note On Velocity.

[mikehalloran]

Mike, I'm familiar with those 5-string Kay models, and am amazed you could wrap your hand around them

Mark, the one time we met, it was a few years after my arm and leg were crippled so I don't expect that you would have noticed the size of my hands. Suffice to say, I had no trouble negotiating a 5 string.



The first time I would do a substitute gig with a professional Bay Area orchestra and pull out that blonde Kay, it was like the Group W bench in Alice's Restaurant where the others would just sort of back away... Then I'd play some warm up scales and we'd all be friends and I would get comments such as, "That bass shouldn't sound so good—but it does."

In the late '70s or early '80s, the edict went out among all of the pro orchestras in the area that basses had to go down to C. I got a lot of calls from players wanting to check out my 5 to see if they could get used to the idea and have one made.

Pat McCarthy got a lot of business installing C extensions at that time. I would assume you know Pat or at least know of him. Have you ever played that magnificent French bass of his? Now there's an instrument that should be sampled.

[mhschmieder]

Mike, I know of Pat, and should give a ring if I decide to extend my Eugenio upright. I might, however, hold out to buy an Upton fully-carved bass (or fix up one from Czechia or Bulgaria), and hope to check them out on my next Boston visit.

I have tiny hands and short stubby fingers, so it's a bit funny that I play bass. Then again, I saw Alicia de la Roccha in concert once and noticed that she compensated at the piano by dropping notes here and there, yet never missing the surrounding rhythmic context in any way. Brilliant! I learned a lot from watching her, but on bass I don't have to compensate as I do on piano (e.g. Scriabin, and other composers fond of parallel 9ths or 10ths).

[toodamnhip]

Ay yi yi you guys, I should be working but this thread got me into VI examinations. The bass led to Vienna jazz drums, which sound pretty awesome. Booing at the Vienna ite is dangerous for me. It is truly a musical rabbit hole one can fall into.
Have you tried the Jazz drums?
Also, I notice the bass and jazz same have a lot of room sound in them. way too much?
I might get these things...jeez
Of course, I could also get, the plucked inst bundle, or the vienna super package, and then there Kontakt 11 ultra...and then.....and then...

[mhschmieder]

The Upright has no room in it at all, which is one of the reasons it is so fabulous. The demos probably add some room; demo people seem to love reverb.

I used the Jazz Drums for several years; I probably was the first one to buy it when it first came out in limited edition for Vienna Suite effects owners.

The snare is to die for, with all the elaborate brush work. But I ultimately found it too hard to get most of the kit pieces to pop out in a mix, so for awhile I was mixing kits and using VSL Jazz Drums for what it did best, then I gave up and took the time to FINALLY get the best out of the fxpansion Jazz & Funk pack for BFD.

I may go back to VSL Jazz Drums when I get back to my mostly straight-ahead soundtrack project from years back that I want to expand and release as a music CD. That's really where VSL excels. But it's awfully hard to remember all of the key mappings for instruments that have a lot of unique articulations (the Cuica is another, but it's still by far my preferred Cuica even though I have at least eight dedicated libraries).