Ample Bass Upright -- might be most realistic one yet

[mhschmieder]

http://www.amplesound.net/en/purchase.asp

I was going to wait until I've tried it, but may as well make people aware of it now in case I forget. Slightly over $100 during introductory sale, and can be bundled with the acoustic bass guitar library, but I personally can't warm to most dreadnought basses (theirs is a nice Guild model though).

I've heard people rave about the Ample Sound guitar libraries for years, but they never quite grabbed me, given how happy I am with Orange Tree and Impact Soundworks.

I have two dozen upright libraries, and my go-to is still Vienna Instruments due to how they miked it as well as it going down to the low notes as they added a hip-shot extender for the sessions.

If not for the note range limitation (and I tried "re-tuning" Low E samples but wasn't happy as low frequency notes don't do well with more than a quarter tone of tuning applied), I would prefer AcousticSamples AcousKontr as it doesn't have the rumble and resonance issues of VSL's Upright. Instead, I apply notch filters to the VSL library.

Anyway, after comparing yet again to the highly recommended Premier Sound Factory upright (which still doesn't convince me, and is expensive), and hearing re-peat's demos posted at vi-control.net, I am convinced that this new library from Ample Sound is "the one", or at least will be useful sometimes.

I spent some time with it in standalone mode earlier this afternoon, and was quite impressed overall. The user manual is out of date so some stuff that is new to V2 isn't in the manual, but it's easy enough to figure out. rather than only provide Round Robin, they allow for a full cache of unique samples on repeats, which sounds more natural to my ears, and there are many other options such as dialing in an amount for buzz and applying it randomly.

What sets this library apart more than anything else, is the various mic positions and ability to blend them at will. There's also DI, which I hate and which is why I won't use Trillian for Upright Bass (even when I edit their presets, they still sound "hot" and "electric" to me, like they're designed for Rockabilly or other genres besides Jazz -- not meant to be a snobbish statement, it's just that I need one for Jazz and most upright libraries aren't good at that). You can mute, solo, and set levels for each channel.

I was about to spend some time doing articulation-splitting on my upright bass parts for my in-progress jazz album (I'm out of shape on upright and the parts that I wrote would require a LOT of practice, so I'm still trying to stick to libraries if I can, but the parts were "played in" using various MIDI controllers so do sound human even if the intonation is a bit too perfect so far ).

Now I will quit the browser so I can start DP and try this library out in place of VSL on my wide variety of material on this album (which goes from Klezmer, Gypsy Jazz, Straight-Ahead, to Bossa Nova, Cumbia, etc.). It appears that the Ample Sound library is set up to be intelligent about legato, but most of these songs have no bass legato due to the styles and tempi.

VSL offers more articulations than anyone, but the switching isn't seamless. With Ample Sound's upright, you can key switch between sustain and staccato, whereas most libraries do not offer both (other than VSL), so I am hoping this library proves the "happy medium" and that I can get warm results that cut through (VSL's Upright and Jazz Drums get lost in the mix quite easily).

[mhschmieder]

I can offer some clear insight in the context of a faster swing-oriented piece at 170 bpm with mostly quarter-note portato upright bass playing and occasional dotted eighth or sixteenth turnarounds.

I'll try some of the other songs in my project next, but wanted to throw it the "do or die" song first, as an extreme case that breaks every upright library I throw at it except for VSL.

The first thing I'll point out is that the staccato articulation is about the attack more than the release, and won't cut off until your actual Note Off event is fired. Thus, it doesn't sound quite right on portato playing, so a song such as the one I described above would need some key switching between staccato and sustain -- not surprising, as I need to get around to this with the VSL Upright as well.

Secondly, the sustain articulation works for any portato or legato playing, but doesn't have a sense of vibrato or progressive vibrato as does Vienna's Upright Bass. In the context of the mix, this means that it requires less production work, but contrarily it doesn't give as much "bounce" and ebb-and-flow to the pulse.

Tied in with that observation, the downfall of Vienna's library is also its biggest plus, which is that it has a LOT of body in the sound (and next to no neck; they might have only used one or two mics near the bridge or the f-holes). While this means you need to dial out the resonance and use a bit of a HPF at production time, it gives a LOT of energy, warmth, and bounce to the overall feel, sounding very alive and real.

If I turn off all but the Body Mic on Ample Sound's Upright, it gets a tiny bit closer to the VSL sound, but only by a hair. You start to notice more body resonance (which also can be bad due to the "boom" factor in the low notes), but the richness and depth only increase a tiny bit.

My conclusion, therefore, is that Ample Sound recorded a plywood bass. Nothing wrong with that; my own upright has a carved top but is basically a plywood model. I know for sure that VSL and AcousticSamples used solid spruce uprights for their libraries. And unfortunately, at least on some of my album's songs, that's really the sound I need for "bounce" and richness, due to the swing rhythm and the lead instrument often being a violin or viola.

The other problem I face is the note range, which goes no further than E1; whereas I usually need to go to D1 if not even to C1 (rarely lower). I only have one such note in this song, and it's rare, but it would change the feel significantly if I raised that note an octave or even less. Maybe a ghost note would be preferred instead, so I can try that now (Ample Sound supports ghost notes via "low velocity").

I think this library will get used; maybe even on my current album. Just not on the swing song, for the reasons cited. For the Brasilian-flavoured songs, I think the dryness and warmth will be beneficial and preferred to the fuller-bodied sound of the VSL and AcousticSamples libraries.

[mhschmieder]

I forgot to mention something that is completely unique about this library and no other:

There is a special mode for setting up MIDI Guitar as the input source. This is true of all Ample Sound libraries, but this is the only Upright library on the market that provides detailed control of MIDI Guitar signals.

You can also tell it to stay on the same string for legato, for a slide effect. Only on the Upright; though they implemented it such that it can be a feature on any upcoming fretless instrument library.

[mhschmieder]

The entire album benefits from the extra body and dimension of the VSL Upright Bass. This advantage becomes particularly apparent during solos, high on the neck, or even in the lowest notes.

Perhaps when I address a project that isn't so pizzicato-oriented in the bass, I'll find the new Ample Sound library a better match -- or when I next do some upright work outside of jazz-oriented genres.

[mhschmieder]

Having put off the inevitable too long, I set up a custom preset in Vienna Instruments Pro for the jazz Upright Bass tonight, and went through the grueling task of adding hundreds of key switches -- although I only needed four articulations (staccato, short portato, long portato, and sustain with no vibrato) in the Return to Forever cover song on my album (my first target).

The result was nothing short of miraculous. The upright bass no longer gets lost in the mix, as all of the notes that should be staccato now have that characteristic, rather than my earlier compromise of using long portato across-the-board.

The vibrato-less sustain doesn't exhibit the resonance problems of the long portato, and if I have a lot of space between notes then I use it instead. No legato needed in this particular piece, but I found four from the Vienna Instrument library that might prove useful elsewhere. None suffer "boom" issues.

So, in spite of apparently being the only person on the web who is convinced of VSL being miles ahead of everyone else, and being disappointed by the libraries that others tout as supreme, I really do think this is the best solution for most jazz work, but you have to be willing to take the time (as with VSL's symphonic libraries) to do a LOT of articulation mapping.

My new technique for that follows a bit from Beat's tutorials. He suggests forgetting Vienna's presets and performance patches, ignoring controller-based switching, and just creating custom presets with nine "low octave" based key switches for the most common patches or related patches that might be gathered per song on an as-needed basis but using a blank saved template preset to start with.

I then copy the full MIDI track to a new track for key switches, set all velocities to 64, all note lengths to 5 ticks, and adjust ahead by five ticks as it takes about that long for a key switch to affect following notes (and any more than that would interfere even with non-legato note spacing).

At that point, I can vet the patches and delete where no change is needed, once confident. It's not a super-fast process, but isn't as slow as manually entering each key switch and matching its time stamp appropriately. I feel it is very important to keep the key switches on a separate track. This also makes it easier to experiment with different libraries without messing up the original, and also prevents mistakes if doing transpositions (especially if another library has a different sense of "C3" etc.).

The Ample Bass library is clearly a LOT less work, but as it doesn't really offer true staccato, one has to keep that in mind. It does take its own approach to note repetition, and it works pretty well, but I still feel that Vienna's is best-in-class -- although I don't have any note repetitions in the RTF cover so we'll see how that plays out for the Upright on one of the other songs as this library isn't quite as deeply sampled as their orchestral fare.

[Shooshie]

While I don't have the particular bass you're talking about, I can certainly agree that Vienna is smarter than the average bear. While my go-to wind instruments (woodwinds and brass) are Wallander, pretty much everything else is Vienna. I've also used Vienna for bassoon, flute, and even some other winds on occasion, because it definitely has a great sound if you can get the expression you want from it.

The key switches are its strength, and yet that's also what drives me away when doing winds; I just want them to play from the WX-5 as if I'm performing on the actual instrument. Wallander does that better than most.

I only make a separate track for key switches if they are close enough to the normal range of the instrument that I'm liable to mistake the keyswitches for actual notes. Usually, basses have high key switches which aren't likely to get mistaken.

But yeah, when it comes to strings, I don't bother with anything else except (occasionally) solo instruments from Sample Modeling: The Cello, for example. Nothing else has the section flexibility of Vienna, and the range of control over the illusion of actual instruments playing in a string section.

Vienna is terribly expensive, but probably worth it. l wish I could own all their instruments, but I do have quite a lot of them, and I wouldn't trade them for anything else out there. It took years of careful study to figure out which ones I really needed, a few at a time, because with Vienna, you can't just buy them all and use what you need. You really have to limit yourself to the ones you actually will be using, then expand on those with articulations and extended sets, unless of course you are wealthy and just want to say you have them all. Very expensive. If a much-cheaper solution comes along that truly can outperform Vienna, I'll be on it immediately, but I doubt that I would ever drop the VSL instruments that I have. Too much time invested in them... mainly doing keyswitches, like you!

Also, Vienna's customer service is pretty amazing. You rarely have to talk to anyone, because it's all there to be found, but it does take a while to get to the bottom of some things. That website must be vast.

Glad to read of your bass exploits.

Shooshie

[toodamnhip]

Sounds good for the most part. The only thing I did;t quite love was the walking bass. Picky about my bass lines and I didn’t like the lines or the performance/swing much. Not sure it it was the programming or the VI. If the walking stuff had impressed me, I would have bought it. Now I will have to think

[mhschmieder]

Due to the lack of flexibility in articulations with the Ample Sound library, I feel that walking bass is one of its weaknesses. Note length has to be so precise for walking bass to work -- especially for swing, with the dotted rhythms.

As a live player -- whether on upright, fretless, or fretted bass guitar -- I am acutely aware of note length, attack, and release. If a library can't cut it, I probably won't use it (or at least not much).

Vienna's jazz upright library is only $75 when not on sale, but it might be on sale at the moment as at least some of the orchestral strings are.

I only got around to one more song tonight, as I hadn't isolated the bass in some time and also dramatically modified the trumpet solo this week, so it took a lot of creative exploration to find a better supporting bass line for the solos as well as for the verse to chorus transitions.

Even so, it took me a full two hours to add the key switches, even though this particular song only really needs two articulations (staccato and short portato), due to almost constant switching back and forth (yes, it has a dotted rhythm!).

I was able to do a bit of cut-and-paste, but only because I foolishly quantized my original bass playing more than I should have. I usually don't do that at all, but on this song I misidentified the culprit and it was too late by the time I realized my drum part needed a full re-do as it didn't fit the style.

This second song to be addressed in full with proper articulation switching, is an original, and is more or less in a New Orleans Stride style. I wrote and recorded the piano part back in 2005, followed shortly by the bass part -- which I probably originally did on a fretless bass guitar or my older shallow-depth semi-acoustic upright from Eminence (when I had a sedan vs. a hatchback and therefore couldn't transport a full upright). I used Melodyne to convert to MIDI for re-tracking.

Interestingly, there is no walking bass on that song, as it throws it out of genre way too far. But it does have a lot of syncopation, which requires a lot of articulation-switching and being conscious of how the first beat usually should be staccato so that the usual "classical" rules of note groupings give the proper flow and forward momentum (at music conservatory, I was taught to generally group from the "2" vs. the "1" when dealing with repetitive rhythmic motifs).

Even so, Ample Sound's bass did quite poorly on the stride song, as each note sounds discrete. Even without using Repetition Performance patches (for intervals or repeated notes), I find that Vienna Instruments tends to sound like a cohesive phrase, without a lot of effort regarding editing note lengths and either encouraging or avoiding legato. They must have some sort of phrase engine?

[mhschmieder]

Oh, I think I forgot to mention earlier that Ample Sound has their own sound engine for their libraries, so no one need worry about not having a Kontakt license, or iLok or eLicenser issues, if they choose to buy this new library.

Especially given the price difference though, for those focusing on jazz, VSL still gets my vote. But if you have neither the time nor the inclination to edit key switches, you might have better luck with Ample Sound's library.

For those working in many genres using upright bass, Orange Tree Samples' Pear Bass is still the most versatile as it also includes the kinds of upright basses typical of each genre. For instance, when I was shopping for my upright a few years ago, I quickly became aware that country folk, rockabilly, and jump swing players tend to prefer narrow necks and super-high string tension.

[kgdrum]

The Ample Bass really sounds great to me,in case anyone missed it Re-Peat a user who posts on VI-control did a great sketch with it,check it out.

http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... pleABU.mp3

[Shooshie]

The Ample Bass really sounds great to me,in case anyone missed it Re-Peat a user who posts on VI-control did a great sketch with it,check it out.

http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be ... pleABU.mp3

That sounds amazing for a VI.

RE: Mark, what's wrong with the walking bass? Are the notes too long? From the above example, it sounds like that could be the case. Is it velocity based? Would it respond to breath control? If so, you might be able to use that for walking bass.

Shoosh

[mhschmieder]

KG, it was re-peat's demo that brought my credit card out of my wallet after a day of deliberating whether to take the chance on Ample Bass. That guy's got a lot of time on his hands... Just joking; he's a hard worker and a great musician, who definitely puts in whatever time is necessary with a tool.

As for note length, it depends on the tempo. Vienna offers several (Ample only offers one, or 1.5 if counting the faux "staccato" key switch), and they differ characteristically as well, in terms of timbre, note attack, and stability of tone. Vienna sounds more realistic in that way.

The raw tone of Ample Bass can be nicer as the mic positions were chosen so as to avoid resonance issues, but this also means it doesn't capture as much depth and "floor" as VSL -- especially noticeable on the lower notes. With VSL, you feel like the floor (wood, of course), is part of the sound!

I have no regrets over the purchase, and may yet find songs where the limitations of Ample Bass are not an issue and its better "raw tone" out of the box is an extreme advantage.

Also, I find that even though VSL keeps its place as my primary sound library for most genres, experimenting with other products helps me isolate what to strive for in improving my VSL usage.

So even if I end up going back to VSL (as I did recently for jazz flute, using their amazing Flute II as the core, but after working through Bela D Media's Retro Flute, Orange Tree Samples' Passion Flute, and Sample Modeling's Flute as well as Wallander's), I never consider it money wasted as learning isn't free. And anyway, VSL is set in stone and will never change; the other options might improve and eventually surpass it altogether.

[mhschmieder]

You can set up VSL for BC, sort of, but I think you have to have VI Pro vs. the free player (and I do have VI Pro). I haven't tried yet; my WX5 has been in the closet for a few years as I have primarily been polishing up long-neglected legacy material given that I have such a large back-log already.

In general, VSL's biggest weakness is that you can't really use EXP (or BC) in the way that you can with Sample Modeling or Wallander. They have available articulations that are pre-recorded crescendos, sforzatos, etc., and I am finally starting to make more use of those. But they offer no swells, of course, as those can't really be pre-packaged with timings. I have found the EXP approach less than ideal in terms of VSL, but wonderful when used on Sample Modeling's instruments.

[Shooshie]

You can customize the keyswitches to use pretty much anything as a trigger. You can also use the WX-5 to send various program change control numbers and values. I wonder if it would be possible to set up some keyswitches in VSL that use the various CCs that the WX-5 can send. Ideally, such a set would involve some program change values, some bank number values, some notes, and possibly some other sources of MIDI data as well. Maybe some switches could be made with BC values, so that an expression or BC value of 120 might produce a sfz articulation.

It would require some thought, some careful setup, and a lot of practice to make it smooth. I'm actually surprised that I haven't tried that, as I've thought about it a lot, but in the end, it's just so much easier to edit-in the keyswitch. But if I were to need to perform this live, I think it would be possible to render a fairly good set of keyswitches this way. That would make VSL strings a lot more responsive to the WX-5. In reality,

I guess I HAVE used basic note keyswitches this way, but it seems like the CC#s would open up a lot more possibilities if you could become adept at sending them. It's not exactly easy to do this, but with practice it could be done fairly quickly.

Just thinking out loud here. Nothing important.

Shooshie

[mhschmieder]

Shooshie, I'll read your post in detail a bit later today; thanks for posting that. Looks like useful info, as I've always wanted to set up VSL for the WX5.

This is just a quick visit in the middle of a session, to alert people that the Ample Bass is incapable of playing fast staccato, whether setting sustain or staccato as the articulation.

I have a cumbia-influenced tune that has a bass part that is pure staccato throughout, as it has a lot of octave leaps (not traditional cumbia style, I know, but I prefer to go forwards than backwards even when visiting known genres as otherwise what value am I adding as a composer?).

Regardless of note length or note spacing, Ample Bass can't catch the second or third note in my three-note groupings. As is traditional for cumbia, I set the time signature to 2/2, with tempo set to 60 bpm for the half note quantity, and most bass notes averaging around 90-120 ticks with a smaller percentage as low as 60 or as high as 150 ticks.

As it stands though, a pure staccato bass part doesn't sound very good with Vienna's Upright, as it is too dark sounding. Their staccato works best for accents, but portato (even short portato) doesn't work on this song.

Cumbia is a very percussive form of music; many ensembles are all-percussion! And the main bass is typically carried by the marimbula (unrelated to the marimba; more like a giant bass sanza).

I'm going to try Pear Bass (Orange Tree Samples) and the AcousticSamples KontrBass now.