external MIDI instrument timing

[Maxxy]

My use of the term "earlier" is not right ...I should have said just "adjusted" as I think some bits need to be adjusted later... just not as late as other bits....so "earlier than later"

I'm sure you understand.... gulp ( :

In over my head

[dewdman42]

So with regards to IAC, I have done experiments and talked with some others and feel that IAC can get MIDI from one app to another in less then 1 millisecond reliably and consistently. However there will latencies with the other program producing audio.

[Maxxy]

I am a goat…a goat I am

I’ve just discovered that turning off Sync Recorded MIDI to Patch Thru *dramatically* tightens up the syncing of a DP clocked external MIDI sequencer. I hadn’t realised that this option basically turns on a delay that places the recorded input late … it assumes you are inputting MIDI by playing live….most likely a keyboard or drum controller …and that you will play a bit on top of the beat to compensate for the slightly delayed sound of your VI or external MIDI synth… you will be hearing the Metronome Clock and your input as tight as you can by using lowest Buffer Settings

I have ignorantly …but not blissfully…left this Sync Recorded MIDI to Patch Thru on by default and have pursued all attempts at measuring and testing various sync configs without regard to this fundamental option

I am a goat…a goat I am

Thanks to these threads the penny is finally dropping

I am using an Arturia BeatStep Pro as a sequencer that will play DP hosted VI drums ….. it also CV and MIDI triggers external and internal synths. So it is often synced to DP… with DP transmitting MIDI clock to it. In this case Sync Recorded MIDI to Patch Thru must be left off

In fact, *regardless of Buffer settings* the externally sequenced MIDI output will be consistently recorded into the correct position (in my case late by just 4 ticks)…

IOW you could use maximum Buffer size and still record your clocked external MIDI in perfect position!!! … it would sound horrifically out of time during the recording but it would be recorded correctly …as long as Sync Recorded MIDI to Patch Thru is off

And for the record and FWIW….. Fine Tuning Audio I/O settings have no influence on the placement of the recorded MIDI

I feel a veil lifting

I know…..I know

Let me say it for myself

I am a goat….a goat I am

[HCMarkus]

No worries Maxxy. Sync Recorded MIDI to Patch Thru has tripped up a huge number of DP users over the years and toggling this preference has been the magic bullet/answer to many threads here at MOTUNation. As you point out, it serves a very useful function when recording MIDI while monitoring VI's and using a small buffer. But it can mess with your head...

[terrybritton]

I am a goat…a goat I am

I’ve just discovered that turning off Sync Recorded MIDI to Patch Thru *dramatically* tightens up the syncing of a DP clocked external MIDI sequencer.

I am feeling enlightened.

It is like you touched my third eye and I experienced instant awakening! Thank you for this information, Maxxy!

(Why do I feel the urge to "bleat" occasionally, though?)

Terry

[Maxxy]

Hey thanks for the kind words HCMarkus…. and glad to hear to hear it’s helpful terrybritton…

I also had a transformative moment and feel newly empowered….truly

Thanks to dewdman42 and all in this thread ….I’ve been around it a number of times trying to get my head on top of fine tuning and syncing …. struggling…..and there’s a link in here to this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=62235 ….where dewdman42 spells out exactly the point I re-stated

and as I said...in my case I already changed the MIDI sync setting you mentioned on the other thread.

also the thing you mentioned about sync effects how MIDI notes are recorded on the MIDI track. So basically when its checked, it will record the MIDI notes coming into MIDI input late, to match what the player actually hears through latent audio. If you uncheck the box, then the MIDI notes are recorded to the MIDI track exactly as received on the MIDI input.

Crunch …it hit me….man I have read the rollover help description of Sync MIDI Patch Thru many …many… times and somehow I never really got the importance of it…. I’ve tried to avoid MIDI as much as possible for years … but using it a lot more lately… it just never really clicked until now

dewman42 has persisted with this subject for quite a while here so hats off to him…. and he himself thanks HCMarkus for his explanation of Sync MIDI PT right here in this thread

round and round it goes… it’s great to have this community here….thanks to all

terrybritton… I think the desire to bleat is quite normal…certainly my friends do …. I catch myself frequently…. there’s a goat not far away more often than people let on….

( :

[RROY]

Turning off "Sync Recorded MIDI to Patch Thru" has no effect on external MIDI triggered sounds on my system. It doesn't tighten up timing at all.

[Robert Randolph]

Turning off "Sync Recorded MIDI to Patch Thru" has no effect on external MIDI triggered sounds on my system. It doesn't tighten up timing at all.

I've been quietly following this thread, and I tried this option as well. Sync recorded MIDI to patch thru appears to make things worse here.

This is all very confusing honestly. Even with Dave's clear directions it's rather fussy.

I have a setup here that works for what I do, but when trying to replicate some of the workflows I'm seeing other people doing, I can't get good results with DP's system.

Having a per-track plug-in similar to the hardware insert plug-in for this task would be ideal if possible.

[dewdman42]

In my view, MIDI timing should match as closely as possible what the actual clock counter is doing at all times...and then a plugin which can be used to provide some latency correction for pre recorded MIDI tracks, not globally, but on a track by track basis. We sorta have that already with the time shift plugin. However the nice thing about a dedicated instrument plugin would be that you could first of all place it on an instrument track in a V-Rack and interact with it the same way you do VI's. Secondly, such a plugin could be able to auto detect the round trip latency and set it for you.

I would say that not including plugin support like that.. globally, it should send MIDI with the clock. Alternatively it would be interesting to have a global setting, similar to the audio fine tuning, which would have playback and record offsets for MIDI, relative to the clock... Though this might be completely overkill if a plugin was there.

I also think they should try to make sure whenever possible that what audio we hear also matches the clock..which might not be possible when plugins are on aux tracks, maybe. But anyway, the system should figure out all the latencies and make sure the clock matches the audio we're hearing.

And I think 9.1 has some bugs related to some of this, so testing we are doing is shooting in the dark.

[Maxxy]

I hope my post didn’t add to the confusion

To be sure RROY…. in my ‘revelation” I was referring to an outboard sequencer that is clocked (slaved) to DP (using Transmit sync)…. the outgoing MIDI clocks from DP really sync the outboard sequencer’s outputted MIDI being recorded to DP best if Sync MIDI Patch Thru is off

DP is recording the *MIDI* info of the outboard device…..I wasn’t talking about recording *audio* in DP….. nothing is coming out of DP other than MIDI clocks

However ….this thread has mostly been talking about Fine Tuning *audio* recording in DP ….in the cases where that audio being recorded by DP is (a) being triggered in an outboard synth/sampler/drum machine etc from a *MIDI* track in DP and/or (b) being processed in an outboard processor from an audio track in DP.

If I can summarise that RROY and Robert … myself also… have observed that Fine Tuning I/O is not working properly in DP 9.1 or 9.12 … using these versions of DP will only add to any confusion we may be experiencing. … so let’s wait for further clarification from MOTU … hopefully an update soon…

I suggest if we’re trying to understand the Fine Tune Audio I/O process that Magic Dave has explained here we use DP 9.02…

HTH

dewdman42 ...just saw your post ... I'm with you on the MDI plug-in idea

[Robert Randolph]

You know, the manual does seem to indicate that some of these things may work differently when using MOTU products. (pg. 220 for instance)

I wonder if that is factoring in to some of the discrepancies?

It doesn't make much sense to me, but the manual does indicate that there is a difference in at least 1 case.

f you have a MOTU USB MIDI interface, Digital Performer records with an extra degree of precision.

[Tritonemusic]

You know, the manual does seem to indicate that some of these things may work differently when using MOTU products. (pg. 220 for instance)

I wonder if that is factoring in to some of the discrepancies?

It doesn't make much sense to me, but the manual does indicate that there is a difference in at least 1 case.

f you have a MOTU USB MIDI interface, Digital Performer records with an extra degree of precision.

It's probably because MOTU products have MTS (MIDI Time Stamping).

[Maxxy]

Yes Tritonemusic

Robert…I imagine this would be referring to MOTU’s MIDI TimeStamping technology which promised tighter MIDI timing when using a MIDI TimeStamping-featured MOTU MIDI interface. I think it was basically a buffer in the MOTU MIDI box which received the MIDI out of the computer a little early and sent it out of the box on time……this was done to prevent any possible jamming of MIDI at the computer output…

As James Brown would say to hit the one….the computer may have, for example, a MIDI kick event , a few audio soundbites in audio tracks….maybe an automation change or two….all timed on exactly beat one tick zero….what does the computer do?… it can’t send all those events at exactly beat one tick zero … it can only send them sequentially….. possibly resulting in the MIDI being sent a little late…..slightly sloppy timing…MIDI Time stamping was supposed to prevent or reduce this from happening…as i understand it

I mentioned that I’m re-organising the studio in order to incorporate my old synths and other more modern outboard MIDI hardware. When I first dipped a toe ….a hoof ( : … back in this world a few months ago I pulled out my old MIDI box….dusted it off and cleaned the jacks… a MOTU micro express…serial port model l!! ( : Still in perfect condition….it was once a proud integral part of my world…. I started to use it for a while in standalone mode until I got the iConnectMIDI4+…. so now I’m up to date with the MIDI interface

And now also….happily … up to date in my head regarding DP and MIDI and audio syncing ….thanks to this thread…

I’ve carried on testing again now with the Sync MIDI Patch Thru disabled by default

I’m very pleased how the Fine Tuning Audio I/O procedure explained here by Magic Dave has enabled a very high degree of tightness …. equally pleasing is that I understand why and how to use it….great stuff! ( :

In case it is helpful I will add here the results I am getting in my testing tonight:

Using 9.02 as explained before…(later versions seem buggy at the moment)…. one issue I have found is that the Fine Tuning Offsets need to be changed according to the Project Sample Rate being currently used….something to keep in mind

So in 9.02 my settings today *at 48k* are Playback Offset: -428 and Rec offset: +483

These settings work really well with one caveat…at buffer sample rates of 128 or less the “audio out being recorded back in” setting….the Playback Offset…ceases to work properly… the recorded audio gets a little earlier at 128 and earlier again at 64 and earlier again at 32:

at 128 sample Buffer: 152 samples early
at 64 buffer …………. 280 samples early
at 32 Buffer ………… 344 samples early approx 7 miliseconds

But from 256 sample buffer settings on up to maximum it works really well

The other Fine Tuning function…..the MIDI out recording audio back in setting….the Playback Offset …works perfectly at all Sample Buffer settings

At *96k* Project sample rate my Offsets have to be adjusted and are: Playback -878 and Recording 946

I feel I’ve climbed a bit of a mountain here ….and now have a much better understanding of syncing stuff well in DP ( :

Onward and upward…

Bleat

[Maxxy]

Correction

Sorry not:

The other Fine Tuning function…..the MIDI out recording audio back in setting….the Playback Offset …works perfectly at all Sample Buffer settings

I meant to say :

The other Fine Tuning function…..the MIDI out recording audio back in setting….the *Recording Offset* …works perfectly at all Sample Buffer settings

[Maxxy]

But I think Shooshie got it right the first time on the first page of this thread

+1 MIDI plug-in button