external MIDI instrument timing

[dewdman42]

Sorry I am a smart guy but I am confused and I give up. Cheers

[RROY]

Here's another screen shot to show the difference between DP 9.1 and 9.02 at different buffer settings with the same Audio Timing I/O setting on all takes.The green tracks are DP 9.1 and The blue tracks are DP 9.02. It seems that in DP 9.02 changing the Buffer size has little or no effect on timing. However in DP 9.1 changing the Buffer greatly effects the timing between a triggered external MIDI source and a Virtual instrument source. I would suggest to Magic Dave to test this out. In my earlier post I explained how I set this up. The link is to a screen shot showing the considerable timing discrepancy.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/144703453 ... ed-public/

[RROY]

Timing of external MIDI sound sources is broken in DP 9.1, at least for me as no one else has confirmed this. In DP 9.02 there is no problem. I include one more Screen Shot to illustrate the difference between the 2 versions. These were all recorded with the same Audio I/O Timing offset. The only thing being record is a side stick hit from a Korg TR-88 straight to a stereo audio track. No plug-ins are being used. There is no Master Fader. The green tracks are DP 9.1 at buffer settings of 128, 512 and 1024. The blue tracks are DP 9.02 at the three different buffer settings. Note how all the 9.02 (blue) are exactly on time and the 9.1(green) are further and further off time as the buffer is increased. Even the first at 128 in 9.1 is not as tight as any of the buffer settings in 9.02.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/144703453 ... ed-public/

[RROY]

Is there someone in this community who has both DP 9.1 and DP 9.02 or even just DP 9.1 that uses external MIDI sounds that can confirm or deny the timing issues with external MIDI in DP 9.1 I have described above? I am still waiting to hear more from Motu. They are looking into it. It would be good to know if this is only happening on my system, or is wide spread as I suspect it is, as DP 9.02 works properly on my system. Is there anybody out there?

[dewdman42]

I haven't tested with different latencies but what I can say is that I was unable to get audio lined up using audio fine tuning. I reccomend for now you use MIDI time shift plugin until they fix it, and maybe after that too.

[RROY]

Thanks for your reply, dewdman42. I'm surprised more people aren't more then a little concerned with this problem. This seems like a big issue to me. Switching back to DP 9.02 is another work around for now.

[Shooshie]

Thanks for your reply, dewdman42. I'm surprised more people aren't more then a little concerned with this problem. This seems like a big issue to me. Switching back to DP 9.02 is another work around for now.

It's a matter of timing (no pun intended). We're obviously interested in this kind of thing, and concerned when it's not working right. But we can't always jump in and test things, especially when they involve external MIDI devices, on spur of the moment. Maybe others will join in after the weekend.

Shooshiexsdzdfrde

(oops... one of my cats finished my signature. I'll just leave it that way)

[dewdman42]

Thanks for your reply, dewdman42. I'm surprised more people aren't more then a little concerned with this problem. This seems like a big issue to me. Switching back to DP 9.02 is another work around for now.

I think these days a lot of people don't use external keyboards too much anymore. Admittedly, I have about $15k worth of hardware keyboards sitting here that I hardly use for recording anymore either. but sometimes I think I should use them more as they have excellent sounds...especially my Jupiter 80.

Where this is more of an issue for me is when I'm using jackOSX and external software programs, then I need to make similar adjustments...and the audio fine tuning is really not the appropriate place for that either.

I am sure that if there is a bug with the audio timing, MOTU will work it out eventually. In the meantime, try the MIDI time shift plugin for external instruments of any kind.

[RROY]

Just got this reply from my last MOTU Tech Link. "This case has been submitted to the DP Development Team to be addressed in the next DP9 update."

[RROY]

I just installed DP 9.12 and timing external MIDI instruments is still a mess. Changing Audio I/O timing and buffer sizes still results in wildly miss timed MIDI events, no different then DP 9.1. This renders DP 9.1 and 9.12 unusable for me.

[James Steele]

Yes, yes. Unusable. Got it. I guess you'll have to wait for the next update. They were probably rushing out a fix for the CC64 issue. Not many people are using external MIDI modules these days so it may be a lower priority for them.

[dewdman42]

Personally I don't think it's external MIDI that is broken it's the audio fine tuning that is broken.

The offset is due to MIDI wire latency which is normal but the trick of using audio fine tuning to compensate does not presently work. In theory this would effect anyone using the audio fine tuning for any reason.

In any case the external MIDI inst issue can be easily worked around just use the MIDI time shift plugin and set audio fine tuning to zero. Frankly that's how I think it should always be handled anyway.

I think a lot of people don't use the audio fine tuning either for other reasons, but those that do, it appears to be broken for now.

[RROY]

Yes, I've tried the the MIDI Time Shift plug-in and it does work, but you have to change it every time you change the buffer setting as MIDI timing changes as you make the buffer smaller or larger. I've been using DP since around DP 3 and it's the first time an update has broken something as basic as external MIDI timing. Anyway DP 9.02 functions as it should in this regard.
So I will only use DP 9.12 for projects with no external MIDI instruments. Hopefully the next update will fix this.

[James Steele]

I believe somewhere in this thread, MOTU confirmed? I look forward to the day of the bug-free release of DP. But then what will we have to talk about here?

[dewdman42]

They made some very big changes with the next gen pre gen....and also with cutting the latency in half. Seems like they missed something for sure.

Now I want to get back to what you said that changing the buffer setting requires the MIDI time shift plugin to be changed...if that is true, then its not an acceptable solution. I am not presently able to test with any hardware myself... The MIDI time shift should be used to compensate only for the time needed by MIDI to go out over the MIDI wire, interact with the hardware and produce sound. After that, the sound coming in from the synth should be exactly the same as any mic, guitar or other sound source.... In other words, if you are recording vocals, with a big buffer setting there will be some latency. However, in theory, DP is supposed to be automatically making sure that incoming analog sound will end up on the track where it was when you sang it, picked it or played it outside the box. If it doesn't do that, then there is a bug in the audio timing. The audio fine tuning, I think, is supposed to be for fine tuning that record offset, if and when you have additional digital gear in the external line that might introduce more latency that DP doesn't know about. That doesn't appear to be working right either.

So what I am saying is this, if the audio timing is broken, as you say, then everyone recording vocals, guitars or any other kind of analog signal from outside the box will have timing problems where the recording is not ending up on the track on time, but is ending up late, depending on the amount of latency due to the audiocard buffer.

In my view, DP should be automatically making sure the incoming sound ends up on the track on time, that should be the case for vocals, guitars, bongos or any other external sound including an external MIDI device. The MIDI time shift plugin is what you use to compensate, not for that buffer latency, but for the MIDI delay it takes to get out of the box, over the wire and into the head of the external synth in order to produce sound. When the system is working properly, the MIDI time shift should work at all buffer settings without having to change it. Alternatively if changing the buffer setting makes the ext inst record later and later on the track, the I would say DP is not properly offsetting the record latency based on the audiocard buffer size. That means there may be two problems:

1. DP may not be automatically record offsetting incoming analog sounds based on the soundcard buffer settings.
2. The audio fine tuning is also not functioning to further correct that record offset.