DP 9.1 is here

[Robert Randolph]

What is it at 128? Doubled 64>

So I tried a simple loopback test using a 64-sample buffer and 44.1khz sample rate.

Then I captured the signal on my DSO and measured the timing difference to ~0.01ms

At 128 buffer size:

DP 9.1, Cubase and Logic are showing at 10.22ms.

DP 9.02 at 16.02ms(!!).

I should probably double check these numbers as I did them in somewhat of a haze before I *ahem* fell asleep on the floor of the studio re-cabling some stuff.

Though, they are dead on to what would be expected, so there's not much reason to test them again.

[Robert Randolph]

maybe I'll try a fresh file. This was a long term verified bug so why it is not fixed on my system and is fixed on yours is a mystery

Can you try VST? Which Waves version do you have?

Could you make a video of this in action? You can do this with quicktime and file->new screen recording.

This seems to be working fine on my system too.

[stevenew]

Regarding buffer size & CPU usage:

I open a project for mixing in DP 9.1 created in DP 8.07, in DP 8.07 at 1024 it uses about 60% CPU, in DP 9.02 it uses about 70%, in DP 9.1 it uses about 70%. Am I missing something? I can see no difference with this project in DP 9.1 than in DP 9.02.

Do these new buffer/latency/CPU tweaks only work on lower buffer settings?

[Robert Randolph]

Regarding buffer size & CPU usage:

I open a project for mixing in DP 9.1 created in DP 8.07, in DP 8.07 at 1024 it uses about 60% CPU, in DP 9.02 it uses about 70%, in DP 9.1 it uses about 70%. Am I missing something? I can see no difference with this project in DP 9.1 than in DP 9.02.

Do these new buffer/latency/CPU tweaks only work on lower buffer settings?

CPU usage isn't a good metric. How that is reported is not entirely accurate to what 'cpu usage' actually is.

If you want to know if things improved then lower your buffers until the last one before the project can't play back properly. Compare that between versions.

Remember that efficiency doesn't necessarily mean that you use fewer things, but that you use what you have better. Two programs can both report 70% cpu usage, and one of them does significantly more with that.

[stevenew]

Well in DP 8.07 I could get the project to stutter along at 256, play more or less OK at 512, obviously best played at 1024. In DP 9.02 it would refuse to play back at 256, I get the same in DP 9.1. In DP 9.02 it would just about play at 512, seems the same in DP 9.1

[waxman]

Thanks Robert you are the Metric Man!

Interesting the buffer test at 128 in DP gave the same result as Cubase and Logic.

I did a session yesterday in DP 9.1 using BFD3 (a drum VI) triggered by Roland eDrums TD 30. I am using a MacPro Intel 3.5 6 Core (trash can)

The results were the drummer (human I think?) said there was Zero latency and 9.1 was markedly better then 9.02. On this large track session the performance meter in DP 9.1 sat at 20% and never went above 50%.

The same setup on Logic X and ProTools 11 with buffers at 128 gave the drummer a perceptible latency or "delay." When setting PT 11 and Logic buffers to 64 to try to get the same result (as DP 9.1 at 128) BOTH Logic and PT 11 froze and meters went to red.

The conclusion:
After using this BFD3 vi set up for hours. DP 9.1 at 128 is rock solid no crashes and no perceptible latency. When Logic Pro X and PT 11 buffers were set to no perceptible latency those DAW's were unusable.

Can you explain what's happening here? Is it simply DP 9.1 handles Virtual Instruments and Plugins better then any other popular DAW? Thanks for all your hard work!

What is it at 128? Doubled 64>

So I tried a simple loopback test using a 64-sample buffer and 44.1khz sample rate.

Then I captured the signal on my DSO and measured the timing difference to ~0.01ms

At 128 buffer size:

DP 9.1, Cubase and Logic are showing at 10.22ms.

DP 9.02 at 16.02ms(!!).

I should probably double check these numbers as I did them in somewhat of a haze before I *ahem* fell asleep on the floor of the studio re-cabling some stuff.

Though, they are dead on to what would be expected, so there's not much reason to test them again.

[Robert Randolph]

Thanks Robert you are the Metric Man!

Interesting the buffer test at 128 in DP gave the same result as Cubase and Logic.

I did a session yesterday in DP 9.1 using BFD3 (a drum VI) triggered by Roland eDrums TD 30. I am using a MacPro Intel 3.5 6 Core (trash can)

The results were the drummer (human I think?) said there was Zero latency and 9.1 was markedly better then 9.02. On this large track session the performance meter in DP 9.1 sat at 20% and never went above 50%.

The same setup on Logic X and ProTools 11 with buffers at 128 gave the drummer a perceptible latency or "delay." When setting PT 11 and Logic buffers to 64 to try to get the same result (as DP 9.1 at 128) BOTH Logic and PT 11 froze and meters went to red.

The conclusion:
After using this BFD3 vi set up for hours. DP 9.1 at 128 is rock solid no crashes and no perceptible latency. When Logic Pro X and PT 11 buffers were set to no perceptible latency those DAW's were unusable.

Can you explain what's happening here? Is it simply DP 9.1 handles Virtual Instruments and Plugins better then any other popular DAW? Thanks for all your hard work!

I'll look in to it.

128 sample buffer, if it's giving ~8-10ms delay will be noticeable, so that's important to note. I'm very certain that DP is giving the same RTL as Logic/Cubase/etc..

Logic does have some weird settings that can change the latency if you're not careful. I'm no Logic expert so I can't really expound upon that without being in front of it.

There must be some other setting in the way, OR it's just some psychological thing.

edit: It's possible that you are getting what's called 'slipped buffers' in PT and/or Logic. This is when a buffer is not fully filled and a glitch occurs... but playback continues. Each slipped buffer will add 1 buffer of latency to your total throughput. So this is a potential issue.

I know slipped buffers can occur in PT with a specific setting selected. Not sure about Logic.

[waxman]

I know Logic and ProTools well. There are no secret settings. In fact I when an empty project with just BFD3 when buffer is reduced to 64 both Logic and PT choke and die...

Maybe there is some setting that FXpansion BFD3 plays better with DP 9.1. However it's the same results with N.I. Komplete and Maschine. Perhaps MOTU has found a better way to handle VI's.

I am fascinated why metric tests are not lining up with real world results. I have always been able to hear 10ms delay. Now with DP 9.1 there is no perceptible delay. For the drummer there is NO perceptible FEEL delay. I'm a real world kind of guy. So DP 9.1 works but Logic Pro X and PT 12 CRASH it's reality not psychological hahahah. Thanks for exploring this conundrum. Look forward to your findings.

[/quote]

I'll look in to it.

128 sample buffer, if it's giving ~8-10ms delay will be noticeable, so that's important to note. I'm very certain that DP is giving the same RTL as Logic/Cubase/etc..

Logic does have some weird settings that can change the latency if you're not careful. I'm no Logic expert so I can't really expound upon that without being in front of it.

There must be some other setting in the way, OR it's just some psychological thing.

edit: It's possible that you are getting what's called 'slipped buffers' in PT and/or Logic. This is when a buffer is not fully filled and a glitch occurs... but playback continues. Each slipped buffer will add 1 buffer of latency to your total throughput. So this is a potential issue.

I know slipped buffers can occur in PT with a specific setting selected. Not sure about Logic.[/quote]

[Robert Randolph]

I know Logic and ProTools well. There are no secret settings. In fact I when an empty project with just BFD3 when buffer is reduced to 64 both Logic and PT choke and die...

Maybe there is some setting that FXpansion BFD3 plays better with DP 9.1. However it's the same results with N.I. Komplete and Maschine. Perhaps MOTU has found a better way to handle VI's.

I am fascinated why metric tests are not lining up with real world results. I have always been able to hear 10ms delay. Now with DP 9.1 there is no perceptible delay. For the drummer there is NO perceptible FEEL delay. I'm a real world kind of guy. So DP 9.1 works but Logic Pro X and PT 12 CRASH it's reality not psychological hahahah. Thanks for exploring this conundrum. Look forward to your findings.

The setting in PT that can cause slipped buffers is 'Ignore errors during Playback/Record'. That will add 1 buffer of latency (2 total for i/o) for each glitch that occurs.

I have no idea what the deal with Logic is.

[waxman]

Ignore errors during record is set... that's the first thing you set so PT functions...

let me know what you find. I am going to talk with Magic Dave and see if I can get the scoop on what is going on. Thanks Robert for your work...

[David Polich]

I think most users are seeing better performance and less latency in DP 9.1. I am, but not with
every plug-in and VI. MOTU couldn't possibly test every plug-in and VI combination there is, and
some vendors never qualify their products with DP, so as the old saying goes, your mileage may vary.

I'm not a metric measurement guy either. I just go by what I hear. I don't judge things by meters.
If it sounds good and there is no stutter or dropouts, I'm good with that.

[amplidood]

Holy crap, the responsiveness of DP is unbelievable now. I've never seen it react so quickly to every little move. Whatever they did to the Pre-Gen engine is genius, makes me feel like I'm working from an SSD drive when I'm not. So glad they have gotten the code up to speed to utilize all this great hardware tech we have now. Wooo!!

[Babz]

So I tried a simple loopback test using a 64-sample buffer and 44.1khz sample rate. Interface was a Saffire Pro40 with firewire latency set to 'short' in the control panel. (it's what I have that isn't totally hooked up right now). OS X 10.11.6.

Routing was (in top to bottom flow):

DP Click -> Main 1&2
Scope tap
Input #8
DP Track with real-time monitor on to out #6
Scope tap on out #6

Then I captured the signal on my DSO and measured the timing difference to ~0.01ms

Can you explain in more detail about what is actually producing the sound being measured and how it is being measured? The DP Click? Does that mean the DP metronome click? How do you generate the "click" in the other applications? "Scope Tap?" -- what is that? What is a "DSO"?

It seems to me that in order to measure something that mirrors actual virtual instruments as we use them, you need MIDI and a sample playback instrument involved (e.g., Kontakt). Latency as it relates to buffers and virtual instruments is about the delay between when I play a note and when I hear it.

Is there a way you can do a comparison test using actual music, musical notes and an instrument, piano or drums or something?

[waxman]

And that's why Babz makes the BIG MONEY!!!!!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Maybe someone can confirm this as a bug or not. When the transport is running, hitting the numeric 4 key used to go in reverse until you stopped holding it. Now it creates a little burp in the timing and the transport immediately continues forward. I used that fairly often in cueing and editing on the fly... in fact, the reverse and slow reverse keys are non functional even when the transport is stopped.

This has cropped up again today. Restarting DP did't fix it. It never happened in earlier version of DP and reassigning the key to something else doesn't help. The keyboard is reading correctly in the OS, DP 9.1 is simply loosing the ability to act on the key command.

Techlink to MOTU