Big mix too hot

[Basstrup]

No knowing your DP project, first thing I would do If you don't have set up individual busses for instrument groups and vocals do it and add compression and MW limiter to each group. If you already have bussed the mix can you "sub-buss" further e.g. Rythm Gtr bus and Lead Gtr bus and then a GTR master? Add a master fader to every aux effect send so you can control the "master" level going to any effect plug on aux tracks overloading your bus going into an effect can negatively affect your mix. If you have vox tracks, Have a bus for lead vox, one for b vox - then one vox master bus. Also when I have vox busses, I make one "band" bus. They provide flexibility to slightly compress and limit for a more open mix than using one master compressor and limiter.

[Phil O]

Would the Master Fader track help or is there another solution?

Well, it depends. It WILL help if there are no plugins in the mix that are clipping. If it's just buildup on the mix bus, DP actually has tons of headroom with it's 32bit FP engine. So, yes, you can simply pull down the Master fader. Even if an individual channel displays an over indicator, it will send an unclipped signal to the master buss. If, however, there's a plugin that's clipping you gotta go back and do it right from the start (i.e., fix your gain staging).

But don't take my word for it. See what Magic Dave has to say at the end of this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44937&p=389416&hili ... ng#p389416

[Phil O]

So I just tried Magic Dave's test but expanded on it. I wanted to not only test internal overs, but see if aux tracks could handle overs as well as Master faders.

-Three test tones (0dB); 400Hz, 1KHz, 10KHz One per track
-Two instances of Trim on each track set to +40dB (80db total each track)
-Three tracks are summed to aux1 bus
-Aux track (Aux1) has aux1 as input, mix as output with two instances of trim set at -40dB
-Aux track (Auxinv) has aux2 as input, mix as output; invert phase as plugin
-Three test tone tracks duplicated without trim plugs and outputs set to aux2 bus

Results:
With an 80dB over per track feeding an aux track. The output on the mix bus nulls.
Repeated test using Master fader in place of aux track. Same results.

As Dave says, "Try it yourself." In my mind, this DP internal clipping myth has been put to bed. Can individual plugins clip? That's an experiment for another day. My suspicion is that some do and some don't.

I keep my mixes out of the red because that's just the way I work, but my suggestion for the OP is pull down the Master fader until your output levels are under control and give it a listen. If you're not hearing anything bad, don't worry about it. And be more careful next time.

Philippe

[daniel.sneed]

DP is great when it comes to avoid bus overloading. Same apply to DP plugins.

DP plugins and busses are 32 bits float, and therefor immune to overloading.
That is to say, only daw ins and outs may get overloaded.

But many third party plugins, are not (AFAICT, Waves, Izotope, ...).
Of course, all 32 bits fixed or 64 bits fixed ones.

So you may double check your inserts to make informed decision.

[HCMarkus]

So I just tried Magic Dave's test but expanded on it. I wanted to not only test internal overs, but see if aux tracks could handle overs as well as Master faders.

-Three test tones (0dB); 400Hz, 1KHz, 10KHz One per track
-Two instances of Trim on each track set to +40dB (80db total each track)
-Three tracks are summed to aux1 bus
-Aux track (Aux1) has aux1 as input, mix as output with two instances of trim set at -40dB
-Aux track (Auxinv) has aux2 as input, mix as output; invert phase as plugin
-Three test tone tracks duplicated without trim plugs and outputs set to aux2 bus

Results:
With an 80dB over per track feeding an aux track. The output on the mix bus nulls.
Repeated test using Master fader in place of aux track. Same results.

As Dave says, "Try it yourself." In my mind, this DP internal clipping myth has been put to bed. Can individual plugins clip? That's an experiment for another day. My suspicion is that some do and some don't.

I keep my mixes out of the red because that's just the way I work, but my suggestion for the OP is pull down the Master fader until your output levels are under control and give it a listen. If you're not hearing anything bad, don't worry about it. And be more careful next time.

Philippe

Nicely done Phil! Thanks.

[David Polich]

Lots of good advice here.

Mainly, though, it all comes back to this...turn your faders down, and turn your listening volume up.
Putting compressors and limiters on busses just makes everything too compressed. It's pissing into the wind.

Back in the 50's and 60's, engineers didn't have compressors and limiters on every track in a mix.
They mixed with the maxim of "if you can't hear something, turn something else down".

You need to understand that the human eardrum has its own built-in "compression". As you turn things up, the ear's own compressor kicks in and things start to sound quieter. The more tracks you have going, the more things start to get lost or disappear, and you start pushing faders up. It's
like the famous line from Deep Purple's Live In Japan concert, where Ian Gillam steps up to the mic and says, "could we have everything louder than everything else".

And as we age, our hearing gets worse. That's another factor.

Finally, ask yourself how many tracks you actually need. It may be painful to contemplate, but you can probably get away with deleting at least a third of them completely. The more tracks you have, the smaller everything sounds.

[HCMarkus]

I want to encourage everyone to read Phil's last post (above)... as long as plugins are not clipping on any tracks, simply bringing down the master fader will do the job. DP's 32 bit floating point mix engine will continue to cleanly deliver the audio.

[Shooshie]

Lots of good advice here.

Mainly, though, it all comes back to this...turn your faders down, and turn your listening volume up.
Putting compressors and limiters on busses just makes everything too compressed. It's pissing into the wind.

Yes and No.

I turn my listening volume down to about ¾. That enables me to mix naturally to that volume level, which leaves a lot of room for other listeners to turn it up on their systems. When I mixed with my listening volume up all the way, my mixes were wayyy too quiet. They sounded fine here, but others complained that they couldn't hear them in the car, or on their iPod when out and about, or whatever. So, I started mixing to ¾ volume or thereabouts; it's actually chosen by taking the level at which I listen to well-mastered commercial recordings and mixing from their final output levels. There are more scientific ways to approach it, but this has worked well for me.

You don't usually need limiters on each track. I use one limiter, usually, on the master track, and it requires very little movement of the threshold to bring it to the right levels. It's mainly there as a brick wall. If I need a limiter on individual tracks, it's a sign that I've screwed up somewhere in regard to input levels, mic placement, and so on. Compressors, maybe, but not limiters.

One other thing; I don't like to bring my faders down too much, generally. Too much fader attenuation is equivalent to a loss of resolution. I feel best about faders when they're around -12dB, but of course that's not a rule. Just a comfort zone. If I can put them at -6dB without clipping anywhere, and get the levels I want, I'll do that, too. The more you expand that signal, the more detail you have in the sound. So, I never mix at full listening volume. It just forces too many limitations on the track levels within the mix.

Shooshie

[TnMike]

Why doesn't the Masterworks EQ have an output knob? I would love to match level while using this EQ.


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[Phil O]

Why doesn't the Masterworks EQ have an output knob? I would love to match level while using this EQ.

You can always throw a Trim plug on the next insert. It's not as convenient as having it in the same window, but no big deal to have both widows open.

Phil

[Phil O]

...When I mixed with my listening volume up all the way, my mixes were wayyy too quiet...

I guess one would need to know exactly what "up all the way" is. That's going to vary from system to stem. I think monitor calibration is a good idea and have been mixing with calibrated monitors for some time now. I highly recommend it. When you can put numbers on it, it's easier to get back to a point where you can trust your ears and your faders just end up where they should be. And I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that your calibration point might be slightly different than mine because we like to mix differently. You can start with Bob Katz's numbers if you like then adjust up or down from there to find your sweet spot. Others may criticize me for this, but it's worked for me. JMHO.

Phil

[edit] Wait. Shoeshine?? I swear i did not do that. I simply used the Quote button.

[TnMike]

Why doesn't the Masterworks EQ have an output knob? I would love to match level while using this EQ.

You can always throw a Trim plug on the next insert. It's not as convenient as having it in the same window, but no big deal to have both widows open.

Phil

Not too bad for one or two tracks, but I have an eq on about every track. Can be a pain to adjust the output with the trim plugin every time you adjust the eq on a track. What eq has it's own output level that's as good as the Masterworks EQ?
Thanks, Mike