Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

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Babz
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Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by Babz »

This should be a good topic...

Since I recently upgraded to DP 9, it seems like a good time to rethink certain things… Like the metronome click sound.

I started off in the pre-audio, Performer days and used to use a MIDI hardware drum machine with a drum stick sound for my click. Then ever since *Digital* Performer, I have been using the "Sharp Click High" sound basically. Main thing I don't like is that sometimes it gets lost in the mix.

I decided to try out a bunch of click .wav files I found online, from major DAWs and other devices. I think I'm liking the Ableton Live default click sound right now. My question is…

What metronome click sound do you use and why?

There are a various considerations. Early on, I was concerned about the timing issues, and would only use a MIDI click, which I thought would have the best possible timing Some people worry about things like headphone bleed, or damage to speakers. My main issue right now is finding something that will cut through the mix.

Discuss!

Babz
Last edited by Babz on Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
magicd
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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by magicd »

Hi Babs!


I use Beep Click High and Beep Click Low. I don't like drums sounds (hat, side stick, cowbell) because I don't want to confuse the click with an actual recorded instrument.

Dave
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Babz
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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by Babz »

OK, now my current favorite is the Zoom sound that I downloaded from here:

http://www.precioussound.com/metronome

Really cuts through well.

Best,
Babz

P.S. Thanks, Dave! Will give Beep Click a try!
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stubbsonic
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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by stubbsonic »

I like this topic, as I've been kind of a collector of click sounds that I use for DP and in metronome programs that let me use custom sounds. I've sent click sounds to metronome app developers that have gotten used in the apps.

For practice (i.e., metronome functions) I like a very short tick that is mostly high end-- I can hear it even if it is not especially loud. And generally, I'll use that kind of sound if I'm tracking, too, but I will also sometimes use a reference track (usually percussion) so I'm staying in a musical place.

I've made and gathered lots of little click sounds that I like (even those camera-click samples are kind of nice). It's a fun source of inspiration for me.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by HCMarkus »

Depends on the source being recorded. A delicate acoustic sound and harsh click can end up with leakage recorded in the track.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by Shooshie »

HCMarkus wrote:Depends on the source being recorded. A delicate acoustic sound and harsh click can end up with leakage recorded in the track.
True, that. When overdubbing, one of my mic tests is always the headphone click with mic pre-amps cranked. Or rather, I keep trying it until I can see where headphone bleed begins. I rarely get any metronome click on my tracks.

Shooshie
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Robert Randolph
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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by Robert Randolph »

I sampled a korg MA-30 metronome's click sound. Since that's what I practice with, and have for many years, anything else feels weird.

I usually work with (for) other musicians though, and I go with what works for them. Usually beep high/low is the best.

The interesting thing to me is what people prefer as the downbeat. In my experience it's split between people preferring high on the downbeat or low on the downbeat!
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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by Phil O »

My approach is totally different. I use a MIDI track and percussion instruments to create a simple groove that I loop, usually one or two measures (so i literally have a click track in my mix). I find that if the performer is listening to a groove that is related to the song, they tend to be more relaxed and play better. On a rare occasion the player prefers simple quarters or eights and it's a simple matter of changing the groove with Drum Editor. Most of the time I use Model-12, but sometimes other VIs. The guitar player might want a stronger back beat where the bass player might want more kick, etc. This approach allows total flexibility. JMHO.

+1 on what Shooshie said about testing bleed. Some sounds bleed more than others so if you have the need for a loud click track, pick less bloody sounds.

Phil
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stubbsonic
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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by stubbsonic »

I've never tried this, but here's an over-the-top click bleed remedy. Render the click track as an audio track (so you know it is sample for sample the same every pass. Next, record a pass of just the click in the cans bleeding onto the mic with the same head position and level as it will during the pass.

Strip silence and invert the phase of that track so you can cancel the click out.

Obviously it won't be perfect, as the player/singer will move around a little, but it will cancel quite a bit. Bounce the result before further processing the track.

I like earbuds sometimes for click.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by labman »

My approach Babs, is more like Phils. I got so tired of feeling like my writing to click often didn't really groove and push and pull enough. So I developed a list of what I call 'timekeepers' (duh) that have feel. I want something that not only gives me a sense of time, but helps move things along. I have about 20 tools I use. One I love is spitfires Brunel Loops. (They appear in a bunch of their libs). I will also pull out some 4 bar full blown perc loop if it is more of a pop piece. Of course, that will get eliminated later on. And I should also mention on of my all time favs for helping the feel. DNA grooves. l'll take any boring MIDI perc loop and use one of Ernest Cholakis' brilliant DNA groove quantize templates.

I should mention that if I know the actual basic feel going in, I'll cut a little 4-8 bar guitar strum type thing, then quickly add and adjust the appropriate time keeper, and remove the guitar. That especially works well with the DNA groove quantizes since they are so flexible.

The real downside is that unfortunately, DPs groove quantize got totally busted as a MIDI plugin, in DP8 and 9 and they still haven't fixed it! (But Motu does know about it)
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Babz
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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by Babz »

Cool discussion.

90% or more of what I track these days is virtual instruments, so headphone bleed is not an issue. By the time I get to laying in vocals or a real instrument, I've got enough of a backing track going that I don't need a click.

A couple of exceptions in the last few years was a solo classical guitar piece, and an extended a cappella vocal section. If I ever face a similar situation, I will try to remember your phase cancellation trick, Stub. Cool idea!

Best,
Babz
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Babz
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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by Babz »

Several interesting points, labman et al...

I often don't like to use something like a perc loop because I don't want it to influence the development of the track. I do, however, sometimes work that way (i.e., using a drum groove as a click track), usually if it's something with shuffle or swing.

Also, in all these years, I don't think I've ever used that Groove Quantize option. And if it's currently broken, I guess now's not a good time to try! :mrgreen:


This brings up another related point: What is the first part you record typically? How do you begin a tune?

For me it is usually chords of some kind. Usually I stumble across an idea on the keyboard or guitar and that becomes the basis of the track. It is at that point that I want to quickly get the chord sequence laid down in perfect time and reach for the click. Sometimes I will record a quick scratch take or two with the click off just so that I don't let the metronome influence the direction of the song. (Those moments of inspiration get heated. I hate it when worry about something like a click, or timing, or anything engineering-related, or anything coming from a different part of the brain, gets in the way of the precious instants of creative spark. I need to get the idea flowing and recorded in some form before I lose it.)

I have also recorded songs with no click and then later done the tempo map thing. Or sometime I will start with a drum beat (or other loop) and build a groove around that.

But typically, the way I most often compose is just fiddling with some instrument (keyboard or guitar) and then get an idea for lyrics and melody. This is the way I prefer to work, coming out of the songwriter tradition -- write the song first, then go into a "recording studio" later, all that. But of course nowadays the recording studio is often integral to, and indistinguishable from, the songwriting/composing process.

Best,
Babz
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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by Shooshie »

Babz wrote:This brings up another related point: What is the first part you record typically? How do you begin a tune?
In a nutshell:
I rarely create a new file. I just...
  • go to the "library" of stuff I've done in the past
  • Find one that more-or-less resembles what I'm about to do. (Time signature, click, tempo, I/O, proportion of MIDI/Aux/Audio, maybe even key signature, number of tracks, which VIs, etc.)
  • Duplicate it.
  • Open it.
  • Select-all and delete.
  • Save the new project and name it.
  • Start writing.
Takes a minute or two, not counting boot time for DP (if it's not already open).

Shooshie
PS: Why not start another thread about this? It's the kind of practical discussion that many users would most benefit from. We can pitch in with our own methods.
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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by Phil O »

Babz wrote:What is the first part you record typically? How do you begin a tune?
I'm coming from a slightly different angle on this, because I'm not composing in the studio. I have had a few clients who work on songs in the studio, but that's the exception to the rule. Usually the song is written before the session starts.

Most of the time it is some sort of scratch track first - typically a guitar or keys. That gives the bass and drums something to work with - sometimes bass first sometimes drums. Some projects don't have bass or drums so that all goes out the window, and other times logistics or personnel dictates a different approach. I guess the answer is it is project dependent. I've also had clients discard early tracks and use a later instrument to build around, re-recording the early tracks with the new vibe. This happens often with bass and drums. Once all the tracks are in place the players hear things that makes them want to re-do their tracks with everything in place. It's so individual.

Phil
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Robert Randolph
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Re: Let's Talk About Clicks, Ba-bay…

Post by Robert Randolph »

Shooshie wrote:
Babz wrote:This brings up another related point: What is the first part you record typically? How do you begin a tune?
PS: Why not start another thread about this? It's the kind of practical discussion that many users would most benefit from. We can pitch in with our own methods.
Seconded. New thread would be great for this topic.
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