Moving regions

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swpowe
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Moving regions

Post by swpowe »

Is there a way in DP to create regions similar to Logic? I often move segments around and it was extremely helpful in Logic to have a region (say 8 bars of MIDI data) that I could just copy and move around the entire chunk all at once. I haven't found anything similar in DP. Mostly the problems I've running with DP are if I try and grab say 8 bars it may or may not pull everything plus I've got to find the 8 bars and make the selection. It sounds like a minor thing but so far it's really messed with my workflow. I'll love any suggestions. This isn't intended to be a "logic is better..." kind of thread. I really am looking to find some new workflows that make sense with DP.

Thanks.
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Shooshie
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Re: Moving regions

Post by Shooshie »

• Logic is regions based.
• DP is selections based.

In DP we learn to create detailed selections, or use time-range selections. You can even save time ranges. To that end, we have the many means of selecting and holding a selection, including the Search menu (Edit/Search) which can save searches for reuse once you have set one up. It's quite detailed, and it's a good idea to learn its parameters so you can incorporate it into your workflow. It will append or modify existing selections, too.

You can take a selection and move it to any point with the SHIFT dialog, (Edit/Shift or COMMAND-L). You can stretch them, flip them, or anything you need to do. It's easier in the long run to use selections, because you have to select what you want to work with, anyway. It's nice to be able to add to a selection, remove from a selection, etc.

Then there are continuous controllers that must stay with their notes when moving them. That's basically converting an event selection into a range selection. Here is a post in the Tips Sheet Thread about that.I recommend reading it, because it requires a little setup in the form of adding keyboard shortcuts to commands (Commands Window, SHIFT-L)

To gain proficiency in DP, you learn fast ways of isolating what you want in a selection, then memorize the keyboard commands for the processes you use the most. The most basic bulk selection is the region between markers. To do that, of course, you need to use markers for the boundaries of sections within your songs/sequences. Just click a marker, and it selects from that marker to the next, or to the end if there are no more markers. That can be a region, if you like.

Means of amplifying or isolating selections include (I'm re-listing some of these):
  • SHIFT-Drag, adds to or deletes from your selection
  • SHIFT-Click, adds to or deletes from your selection
  • Search Menu, allows broad search& find using boolean logic, including searches for data types, rhythms, pitches, durations, velocities, time ranges, and anything else you can imagine... almost.
  • Split Notes, a less-inclusive set of parameters, but similar in some ways to the search menu. Has its own specialties. Take a look to learn about it.
  • Preferences for Time Range, Event, or both kinds of selections: go to Preferences, Editing/Tools, and look for menu at top of window where it probably will say "Use both Range and Event Selections." Or something like that. (Note: even when using Range selections, you can click on events to select them, and when using Event selections, you can drag ranges in the timeline.)
It's best to get in the habit of holding down the SHIFT key when working with Selections, so that you maintain them until you're done.

Note that selections in lists are held, added to, or subtracted from by holding COMMAND. Apple made the change many years ago, and MOTU had to adapt DP to it. We have too many things invested in the SHIFT key and COMMAND key to mix them up, so MOTU compromised and made lists (tracks, bundles, I/O, etc.) according to the Apple spec, but data selection within the edit windows is still maintained with the SHIFT key. If it's text, you'll use COMMAND. If it's data, you'll use SHIFT.

I probably have left a lot out. I make this post at least once a month, but I always think I can make it shorter and better, so I write each one from scratch. Feel free to ask anything you want.

Please note that it's no oversight that DP uses selections instead of regions. That is probably the #1 most often asked for feature by new users, and the #1 most resisted feature by old-time DP users. We have worked in Logic and in DP, and some of us prefer it this way by far. It's just a choice.

Shooshie

PS: Here is a post from the Tips Sheet in which I expanded on the above: Working with Selections, Part Two This one even explains how to use the "regions" in the Tracks Window.
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Robert Randolph
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Re: Moving regions

Post by Robert Randolph »

Shooshie wrote: Please note that it's no oversight that DP uses selections instead of regions. That is probably the #1 most often asked for feature by new users, and the #1 most resisted feature by old-time DP users. We have worked in Logic and in DP, and some of us prefer it this way by far. It's just a choice.
This seems very strange to me.

In 'region based' DAWs you can make selections the exact same way you can in DP.

DP's lack of regions offers no added ability whatsoever, and regions only add to tools available to visualize and manipulate your data.
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Re: Moving regions

Post by MikeInBoston »

Robert, the one ability that regions (clips) have is that a single click can select a very long region of music, whereas in DP, a single click only selects a small portion; you have to click and DRAG over all the measures you want to select. However, I've not only gotten used to it, but I think it's liberating not having to create regions before adding MIDI data. It makes my life easier, and I like that.

Mike
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Robert Randolph
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Re: Moving regions

Post by Robert Randolph »

MikeInBoston wrote:Robert, the one ability that regions (clips) have is that a single click can select a very long region of music, whereas in DP, a single click only selects a small portion; you have to click and DRAG over all the measures you want to select. However, I've not only gotten used to it, but I think it's liberating not having to create regions before adding MIDI data. It makes my life easier, and I like that.

Mike
I think maybe you misread my post.
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cuttime
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Re: Moving regions

Post by cuttime »

Not a Logic user here, but this Regions thing keeps coming up over and over. Perhaps I could be enlightened as to how this could not be accomplished in the Tracks Overview Window.
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Re: Moving regions

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I can't imagine how the likes of Michael Giachinno, Howard Shore, and a multitude of film, concert, and other composers, arrangers, orchestrators, song writers, and others managed to get any work done in such a defective app as Digital Performer and it's lack of "region" editing. Imagine how much better their work might have been had they had regions instead of selections. :rofl:

Seriously, just tell us what you want to do that you can't do in DP. Caveat: you might have to do it differently, like having the radio in your Lexus in a different position than it is in your BMW. Just a different set of buttons in a different place. In the end, you still get to listen to your favorite music.
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Re: Moving regions

Post by Shooshie »

I've never liked using regions. When I would grab something in Logic and suddenly the whole region moved with it, I was always cursing as I did it all again, but after negating the region and just moving the single event that I had grabbed.

Every move I make is in regard to a customized data set. The odds of that coinciding with a "region" is very small. In fact, it never happens. So, in order to do the same with a region, i have to cut up the regions and put them back together, then make my move.

Selections are just easier.

Shooshie
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Re: Moving regions

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

It's the difference between operating with a scalpel or a sledge hammer.

Choose wisely...
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MikeInBoston
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Re: Moving regions

Post by MikeInBoston »

I think that regions (clips) are attractive to producers of EDM and other loop-based music (and, of course, Hans Zimmer, ha-ha). But we don't create loop-based music here, do we?

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Re: Moving regions

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

We have some loopy loopers lurking. LOL (lots of loops).
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Robert Randolph
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Re: Moving regions

Post by Robert Randolph »

MikeInBoston wrote:I think that regions (clips) are attractive to producers of EDM and other loop-based music (and, of course, Hans Zimmer, ha-ha). But we don't create loop-based music here, do we?

Mike
I don't see why it'd matter what anyone creates here.

MIDI clips/regions are useful to anyone that has any repeating element in their work, or where there is any sort of identifiable sections of the work. I suspect that goes for nearly everyone.

Unless I perhaps missed an announcement where DP was only for the avant-garde and free jazz players. :brucelee:

Regions don't require that you use them. Your entire track can be a single region if you want, which allows you to work exactly as you would in DP. It's when you want to section off any part of your work where regions/clips come in extremely handy, or if you wish to modularize your workflow to allow easy, but complex, re-arrangement.

Imagine if DP didn't have soundbites and required that you always select your audio like each track was a limited version of cooledit '96. :vomit: Why be stuck with such antiquated workflows with MIDI?
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Re: Moving regions

Post by Shooshie »

Robert Randolph wrote:Imagine if DP didn't have soundbites and required that you always select your audio like each track was a limited version of cooledit '96. :vomit: Why be stuck with such antiquated workflows with MIDI?
There's nothing antiquated or limited about selecting your MIDI in DP. Nor are regions modern. Nor is DP without a form of regions. You can set up the regions in the Tracks Window to do 2 bar, 4 bar, 8 bar regions (or any other length, up to and including 9 bars)

My earlier comment sums it up for me, Robert, and possibly for many others: the likelihood of a "Region" (in any DAW) coinciding with exactly what I need to operate on is practically zero. So, with a region, you have to customize the selection anyway. Why not just start that way?

There are means in DP for selecting any range of MIDI.
  • Entire track? Select All + One click.
  • Any song section between markers? One click.
  • Any track between markers? Two clicks.
  • Any bar? One click.
  • [Almost] Any complex group of events? Open Search Window. 1st time, set up the search. 2nd time onward, one click.
  • Move any selection to an exact point? COMMAND-L, type in the point, hit ENTER.
One learns tricks for conversion of selections to include all tracks, one track, convert events to range, and so forth.

To expect a computer imposed "region" to match exactly what you want to select, you'd have to be doing either the simplest of music, or very broad-brush general operations. For me, regions always got in the way, and in Logic they became so maddening that I would almost always end up exporting the MIDI to DP to do any significant editing.

There's nothing lost in DP's regions not being the forefront of selection for MIDI editing, and actually there's much frustration saved by not having to work around it all the time as you (well... I) have to do in Logic.

DP's workflows are pretty much cutting-edge. Nothing antiquated about them. There are plenty of other DAWs out there for people who simply must have the computer do their selection for them.

Shooshie
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Re: Moving regions

Post by Robert Randolph »

Shooshie wrote:
Robert Randolph wrote:Imagine if DP didn't have soundbites and required that you always select your audio like each track was a limited version of cooledit '96. :vomit: Why be stuck with such antiquated workflows with MIDI?
There's nothing antiquated or limited about selecting your MIDI in DP. Nor are regions modern. Nor is DP without a form of regions. You can set up the regions in the Tracks Window to do 2 bar, 4 bar, 8 bar regions (or any other length, up to and including 9 bars)

My earlier comment sums it up for me, Robert, and possibly for many others: the likelihood of a "Region" (in any DAW) coinciding with exactly what I need to operate on is practically zero. So, with a region, you have to customize the selection anyway. Why not just start that way?

There are means in DP for selecting any range of MIDI.
  • Entire track? Select All + One click.
  • Any song section between markers? One click.
  • Any track between markers? Two clicks.
  • Any bar? One click.
  • [Almost] Any complex group of events? Open Search Window. 1st time, set up the search. 2nd time onward, one click.
  • Move any selection to an exact point? COMMAND-L, type in the point, hit ENTER.
One learns tricks for conversion of selections to include all tracks, one track, convert events to range, and so forth.
These things all apply to region-based DAWs. There's no difference there.

There is a difference in that if I want to select something, I always have to select it in DP. In another DAW, I can have phrases/themes/parts/whatever pre-sectioned as their conceptual parts. Visual recognition is instant. Selecting them is a simple click.
To expect a computer imposed "region" to match exactly what you want to select, you'd have to be doing either the simplest of music, or very broad-brush general operations. For me, regions always got in the way, and in Logic they became so maddening that I would almost always end up exporting the MIDI to DP to do any significant editing.
The computer doesn't 'impose regions' on you. You are the one that chooses, when creating the part, what is in a region. In fact, DP is the only DAW I know of that decides what a region is for you!

If I want to record a part then that idea, performance, etc.. is compartmentalized as I intend. It can be changed afterwards if necessary. If you want a track to be a simple flow of MIDI, with no perceivable regions, then that is very simple and requires no extra work. You can even glue regions together as you move things around if you wish.
There's nothing lost in DP's regions not being the forefront of selection for MIDI editing, and actually there's much frustration saved by not having to work around it all the time as you (well... I) have to do in Logic.

DP's workflows are pretty much cutting-edge. Nothing antiquated about them. There are plenty of other DAWs out there for people who simply must have the computer do their selection for them.

Shooshie
Everything you have described doing in DP is something that you can easily do in Logic, Cubase, Sonar, Samplitude etc...

On top of that functionality, you also have regions which allow you to sub-categorize your phrases, themes, parts, instrumentations, etc.. into 'things' that the DAW recognizes as 'things'. The user creates these regions, usually when creating the idea, or when arranging.

I call DP's way of working as antiquated because it offers no new functionality compared to the other mentioned DAWs. It's simply missing the idea of regions/clips for MIDI.

Also, FWIW, I think Logic is a terrible reference. I think this conversation is being muddied because of references to Logic's MIDI implementation, which I would agree is sub-par. There are other DAWs that implement much more sensible workflows. Particularly Cubase.
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Re: Moving regions

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I never have found myself accessing the same section (selection, region, whatever) repeatedly. If I need to do that I create a clipping of the section. Even then, I do t use clippings that often. I suppose it gets down to picking the DAW with the features one finds most desirable. As far as my needs, DP does exactly what I need, when I need it, and better than any DAW I've used and seen in use by others.
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