Score editor

[foorere]

Hello.
I am exploring DP9 score editor. How do you do: do you compose everything in DP9 and than export to some other notation software or do you print sheets from DP9?

Interesting, I would like to know how good it is (even comparing to Logic X).

All the best, F

[Panda123]

Export to XML file, which is importable to most notation programs.

[stubbsonic]

It kind of depends on whether you need full featured notation, or can get by with some limitations.

I've used DP charts for lots of things, and have figured out lots of work-arounds. There are some important limitations in terms of navigation marks, articulations/slurs, and measure spacing that make it impossible to produce a professional result. But I've managed to make very usable charts with a little extra work or hand-writing onto printed parts.

I always do ALL of my composition in DP, and when I need something that DP can't do notation-wise, I export. (I've been using standard MIDI files to export, but XML is what I'll do in the future).

[foorere]

Thank you.
Sorry for perhaps simple questions.

I worked for a while in Logic, and knowing Finale extremely well, I see DP is somehow limited. But I still explore DP.
For what I need now is to get a fair notation output. I use to improvise freely, and than clean up (by beat mapping and similar). From a massive unusable notation output, I need to get somehow clear output, visible small notes (=short values), voices etc. From that, as a base, I need to go further to orchestration/instrumentation.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I've been using DAWs and Finale (as well as Sibelius - which I hate) for years to create large scores for orchestra. I have found that working directly in Finale is by far the fastest way for me to compose and set notation. If "real" musicians aren't going to be playing the work, it's in DP. No metronome (so transcription would be a bit off a chore) but that's how I roll.

For "real" musicians, I NEVER use a DAW to enter the notes. The trip back and forth between apps takes more time than just writing the damn notes. Maybe that's just me and the way I developed as a musician. I already hear the music so I don't need to gratify that urge with fast creation in DP (which can be extremely fast, BTW). I need to get the ideas out of my head and "written" in notation fast. In Finale I've found my fastest path is a combination of a good set of macros (for mouse or trackpad), and an easily accessible (desktop accessible) piano keyboard. I use of the Speedy Entry tool with my right hand on the numeric keypad to select values and rests, ties, flipped stems, etc., and my left hand on the piano keys for pitches.

Many years ago I did an experiment when an orchestra commissioned three 25-minute scores with very similar content.

SCORE #1 - Entry in DAW (About DP 5 I think... 2006) and transcribe to Finale. About 10 weeks.

SCORE #2 - More dense sections in the DAW with more subtle and solo sections in Finale. 8 weeks.

SCORE #3 - Start to finish in Finale. 5-6 weeks.

It wasn't a matter of being more practiced at it as the commission went on as my scores are close to finished in my head long before I started setting notes. It was the process of setting the score ENTIRELY in Finale that was so fast for me.

That is not for everybody. Many great composers, arrangers, and orchestrators use a DAW to enter notes. Michael Giacchino (for example) uses DP for his work. If I was fortunate enough to have the volume of work and the staff support he enjoys, I'd probably be working that way too. But I'm small potatoes by comparison and still have to do my own heavy lifting. The one place I don't feel that is a burden is in setting notation, as long as it's ALL done in Finale, from conception to reality.

My vote: do it all in Finale. YMMV.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Maybe James or Shooshie can move this thread to the composing section? We get so lonely around there sometimes... LOL

[Shooshie]

I worked for a while in Logic, and knowing Finale extremely well, I see DP is somehow limited. But I still explore DP.

For what I need now is to get a fair notation output. I use to improvise freely, and than clean up (by beat mapping and similar). From a massive unusable notation output, I need to get somehow clear output, visible small notes (=short values), voices etc. From that, as a base, I need to go further to orchestration/instrumentation.

Rather than think of DP as limited, think of notation in DP as a bonus. The transcription engine is actually quite good, catching rhythms that I've seen other notation apps get wrong. MOTU was the first to create a professional score engraving application, back in 1984. They developed another, better one, but since Finale and Sibelius were throwing all their resources into that one area of development, MOTU chose to back away from scores and focus on the DAW, which is the heart of music, recording, performing, and for some even composing today. So, the notation in DP is not meant to be your final destination, but it's enough for many people who just want a quick print out of what they've done.

I don't think any app is better at what DP excels at. One of those things is creating bar lines for a live performance recorded in MIDI or audio. In some cases, you can generate beats from the audio itself. I prefer to work with "Adjust Beats." Sometimes I use "Record Beats," followed by Adjust Beats, but I usually work faster with Adjust Beats alone. It's still a job, but for most performances of complicated music, computers or algorithms are not capable of getting those things 100% correct without human intervention.

I have attempted this in a couple other DAWs, but I found the process to be too imprecise. For example, when you have to place a bar line or beat where there is no note, or where the note is a little before or after, how do you find exactly the right spot? In DP you do this by keeping the Conductor Track directly above the track on which you're working. There, you watch the tempos as you move the beats around. Zoom in on the tempos so that you can see small differences, and as you move the beats around, you will see when the tempos are level. Or if there is a change of tempo, you will at least see where you would expect it to be. That tells you when the beat is in the right place. I've found that to be difficult to impossible in other DAWs. People tell me that Logic has improved their process recently; I don't know about that. I haven't tried it in the past year. But I still have my doubts that it's as flexible and accurate as DP's.

So, once your beats are in place, you can export the MIDI to another app like Sibelius or Finale. That's the best way to create a professional score, IMO.

If you need help with any of this, let us know.

Shooshie

[foorere]

I will perhaps have more questions later on.
@MIDI Crisis: I understand your approach. And you are quick!
Here is mine.
I hear entire composition, or part of it, in my head.
I write by words what I hear, or draw lines at grand staff. What I hear is usually level of complexity like Olivier Messiaen, for example. A lot of irregular TS, a lot of strange orchestral combinations and so on.
This is very difficult to notate directly in Finale. I mean I can, but I will get lost in all this menus and so on. I need music to get out of me as quick as possible.
So, I basically take a DAW, improvise line, another line, another... I add/remove things and move quickly without need to fix notation. I know exactly how to notate almost any sound I wish, that is not problem.
The improvisation is the most crucial for me.
Than, I have to clean it up. At least not to have garbage "alla Ferneyhough". After that, a kind of particello is done; print that raw material and than instrument/orchestrate (by hand!).
Another person is typing it in Finale, I am proofreading and making the final clean-up.

I have attempted this in a couple other DAWs, but I found the process to be too imprecise. For example, when you have to place a bar line or beat where there is no note, or where the note is a little before or after, how do you find exactly the right spot? In DP you do this by keeping the Conductor Track directly above the track on which you're working.

Thanks. I am not sure exactly how you do this, but seems very ...attractive! If possible to clarify more, many thanks.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

The improvisation is the most crucial for me.

I should have mentioned how many hours I spend improvising at a keyboard before arriving at a score. Yes, I agree, improv is an essential tool to composition. Just ask Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, et al. Especially, ET AL... LOL

[mikehalloran]

Thank you.
Sorry for perhaps simple questions.

I worked for a while in Logic, and knowing Finale extremely well, I see DP is somehow limited. But I still explore DP.
For what I need now is to get a fair notation output. I use to improvise freely, and than clean up (by beat mapping and similar). From a massive unusable notation output, I need to get somehow clear output, visible small notes (=short values), voices etc. From that, as a base, I need to go further to orchestration/instrumentation.

Like the latest version of Logic Pro X, DP 9 supports export via MusicXML. Also, like Logic, such exports are not perfect. Still, it might save you time.

Otherwise, you have the QuickScribe editor in DP—again, not full featured but it may do what you need. If not, there's MusicXML export...

BTW, although QuickScribe has been around for many versions, MusicXML support is new to DP 9 and, like Logic, it is export only.

Now I'm running in circles.

[Shooshie]

I will perhaps have more questions later on.
@MIDI Crisis: I understand your approach. And you are quick!
Here is mine.
I hear entire composition, or part of it, in my head.
I write by words what I hear, or draw lines at grand staff. What I hear is usually level of complexity like Olivier Messiaen, for example. A lot of irregular TS, a lot of strange orchestral combinations and so on.
This is very difficult to notate directly in Finale. I mean I can, but I will get lost in all this menus and so on. I need music to get out of me as quick as possible.
So, I basically take a DAW, improvise line, another line, another... I add/remove things and move quickly without need to fix notation. I know exactly how to notate almost any sound I wish, that is not problem.
The improvisation is the most crucial for me.
Than, I have to clean it up. At least not to have garbage "alla Ferneyhough". After that, a kind of particello is done; print that raw material and than instrument/orchestrate (by hand!).
Another person is typing it in Finale, I am proofreading and making the final clean-up.

I have attempted this in a couple other DAWs, but I found the process to be too imprecise. For example, when you have to place a bar line or beat where there is no note, or where the note is a little before or after, how do you find exactly the right spot? In DP you do this by keeping the Conductor Track directly above the track on which you're working.

Thanks. I am not sure exactly how you do this, but seems very ...attractive! If possible to clarify more, many thanks.

The following video was my first, and is probably much too long for the subject, but... bear with it. The sound used to drift from the picture, so I hope it doesn't do that too badly. It's a lot more effective when the sound is synced.

Bear in mind that what happens in this video takes a fraction of the time when you're not trying to explain it and be clear about it.

Also, the first part of the video is about lining up two windows, not necessary if you just use the Sequence Editor with the Conductor Track set to "Tempos."

Adjusting Beats, a How-To Video

Good luck!
Shooshie

[foorere]

Thanks Sooshie.
I think you are the reason why I become more interested in DP9.
Look: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=60572&hilit=adjust+beats#p514116

I have already explored this and learned a lot from you.
I was just curious that the post above is about something else I didn't know.

I will update you along my work.
Here is my firs question: I exported a MIDI file from Ableton. When I inserted it in DP I get chunks of files, not one complete line:

[JSmith1234567]

I'll put in a huge plug for Notion notation software.

Presonus bought the company and improved it.

I have Finale and Sibelius, but neither of them are intuitive unless you went to like MIT for nuclear physics.

Notion imports DP files really nicely, and I can do pretty much everything I need to do in it.

The best part is it is SO easy to use. I never read a manual and was flying on it pretty fast.

It is not as full-featured as Finale and Sibelius, but it gets me where I need quickly without opening a manual every time I need to do even the smallest thing.

It reminds me of DP because it does what you need without any thought...i.e. when you select and drag something, for instance, it does exactly that, rather than something bizarre that you can't undo.

I'm not a copyist, so I am sure there are limitations, but it lets me do sessions without taking a day off just to do parts or charts.

[stubbsonic]

That's just DP doing it's best guess at displaying the phrases of MIDI notes as phrases. I don't know if that can be disabled. I personally don't find it very useful, as I prefer to select things myself and not have DP try to impose itself on my selections.

[JSmith1234567]

To add about Notion, I always clean stuff up in Quickscribe before I export and import into Notion.

Saves allot of time.

The new version of Notion reads any meter, tempo and key changes also, which the earlier versions did not do.