Upgrading from 2009 12 core Mac Pro

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Shooshie
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Re: Upgrading from 2009 12 core Mac Pro

Post by Shooshie »

Thanks, Waxman. It's going to take me a while to translate all that you said into mental images of the actual things you're talking about. I had no idea I was so far behind in hardware. It's like I'm back here in 1997, and everyone else moved on to 2020.

So, when you're talking about using 6 T-Bolts, you mean 6 thunderbolt ports? Or 6 Thunderbolt devices daisy-chained into 1 port? Are all those devices Thunderbolt, or do they each require some kind of breakout adapter to get from Thunderbolt to Firewire, USB, or HDMI?

I'll look up the hardware you mentioned. I don't know most of it, even if I kind of know what it probably is. I've been a sheltered, cloistered MOTU user. I DO know what the Raven is; maybe some day I'll even get one. Currently it would be overkill for me. Fifteen years ago, I was in the thick of a career that could have used all this stuff to great advantage. I kind of retired from all that, and now I just do little projects that I enjoy a lot. But it still requires a lot of power, RAM, storage, and such. I was really comfortable with what I've got, but I'm starting to wonder if hardware issues are responsible for some of what I've been blaming on the OS. Gotta upgrade some day, I guess, so I'm trying to figure out when that's going to be.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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Shooshie
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Re: Upgrading from 2009 12 core Mac Pro

Post by Shooshie »

James Steele wrote:
kwiz wrote:Thanks for the helpful replies fellas!
Shooshie, I'm right there with ya. A new tower would be incredible. Right now, I'll have to buy yet another PCI extension box to accommodate my cards...
Not sure, but you're not talking about a TB>PCI box are you? A lot of PCI cards won't work in that scenario. I have a UAD-2 DUO and it's not compatible. Supposedly the OCTO were going to be. I've got an HD-192 and 24 I/O as well... PCI. End of the line. If I went to a trashcan, it means a new interface. That said, I can probably live without the 24 I/O if I had to.

That's what I'm thinking, too, James. Didn't I read that MOTU drivers don't work on a Tbolt to PCI bridge? So, I'd be left with the Firewire/USB 896mk3, and I'm not even sure that the drivers will work for THAT when you attach them with Tbolt!

I'm envisioning those new MOTU boxes, which appear to be amazing, but I'm losing 28 channels of audio on very nice, working devices, if I make a switch to the new AVB boxes. Then there's MIDI. Sheesh! If some of this doesn't work on the switch to a new trashcan Mac, then it's like I'll be buying an entire new studio of hardware. Everything.

I've got about 25 TB storage, some SATA, some Firewire, and some USB, and I'm not sure any of it will work with the new Macs. I suppose the USB will. Seems that's all that's intact on the new machines. I've got to decide if I really want to stay on this upgrade train or if maybe what I've got is truly the end of the line for me. It appears that I'm looking at $6K to $8K just to get back to where I am right now, but in new hardware. Ay-yi-yi-yi-yi! :mumble:

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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HCMarkus
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Re: Upgrading from 2009 12 core Mac Pro

Post by HCMarkus »

Shooshie, my question to you is: Do you really need more computing horsepower than you have now?

And, if you do, have you done the upgrade to dual X5680 or X5690 CPUs? I'm sure you've seen my writings on the subject, as I have pretty much foamed at the mouth about the brilliance of it. Currently, two X5680s (3.33 gHz) will run you about $300. Two X5690s (3.46) about $500.

Kwiz indicates a need to use TBolt hardware. TB is the ONE thing the cMP cannot do. Everything else pertinent to audio can be accomplished (and in most cases made faster for less money) on the cMP.

It should also be pointed out that the newest MOTU TB hardware runs under USB2 as well as TB, and from reports at Gearbutz, USB is working great.
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Shooshie
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Re: Upgrading from 2009 12 core Mac Pro

Post by Shooshie »

HCMarkus wrote:Shooshie, my question to you is: Do you really need more computing horsepower than you have now?

And, if you do, have you done the upgrade to dual X5680 or X5690 CPUs? I'm sure you've seen my writings on the subject, as I have pretty much foamed at the mouth about the brilliance of it. Currently, two X5680s (3.33 gHz) will run you about $300. Two X5690s (3.46) about $500.

Kwiz indicates a need to use TBolt hardware. TB is the ONE thing the cMP cannot do. Everything else pertinent to audio can be accomplished (and in most cases made faster for less money) on the cMP.

It should also be pointed out that the newest MOTU TB hardware runs under USB2 as well as TB, and from reports at Gearbutz, USB is working great.
I don't need any more power than I have now, but I can't do with less, either. The 12 core shreds certain applications, but if it's not written in a way that it can utilize the cores, it's basically running on a 2.4 GHz processor, which by today's standards is just adequate. Not bad, just adequate. I haven't read the threads on upgrading the CPU, but you've piqued my interest now. In the early days of the Mac, I souped up my processors, motherboards, drives, RAM and everything else to get machines that were many times faster than what others were using, but I learned that it always came with a cost: my franken-macs always croaked early, and when they did the options were either expensive and obsolete, or... dead. So, I gravitated over the years to off-the-shelf stuff that seemed to be optimized for a certain life-span, but from which you could usually get at least twice that span out of it if you took good care of it. That's why I ignore hardware modding threads. But my 2012 tower is now 4+ years old. It's time to think about where I'm going. If I upgrade the CPUs, will the motherboard and all the other components keep on working for another few years? I've found that the average life of a Mac is about 5 years. After that, either obsolescence or actual component failure will start taking its toll. I've got another year free & clear (knocking on wood), but after that it's time to be ready to do something.

If you think a CPU upgrade is the way to go, I'll read up on it. Thanks for the idea; whether I actually do it will depend on how much time it appears that I can get out of it.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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HCMarkus
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Re: Upgrading from 2009 12 core Mac Pro

Post by HCMarkus »

I recommend the upgrade Shoosh. I'm sure many here at the Nation would agree.

The CPU swap is very straight forward on your 2012 machine. Your MP does NOT need the de-lidded CPUs certain 2009 models do. Many others have done this swap without complication or sacrificing the durability of these sturdy computers. You can buy the already-modded trays from OWC, but you'll pay a hefty premium there.

Assuming you are running SSDs, If you go to X5680 or 90, you will get performance very close to the current 12 core trashcan. If money is no object, go with the X5690s. Bang for buck is best with the 80s. DO NOT purchase engineering samples. "Matched Pair" is BS.

Folks intersted in CPU swaps may find this interesting:
http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac ... t.1954766/
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kwiz
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Re: Upgrading from 2009 12 core Mac Pro

Post by kwiz »

HCMarkus wrote:Shooshie, my question to you is: Do you really need more computing horsepower than you have now?

And, if you do, have you done the upgrade to dual X5680 or X5690 CPUs? I'm sure you've seen my writings on the subject, as I have pretty much foamed at the mouth about the brilliance of it. Currently, two X5680s (3.33 gHz) will run you about $300. Two X5690s (3.46) about $500.

Kwiz indicates a need to use TBolt hardware. TB is the ONE thing the cMP cannot do. Everything else pertinent to audio can be accomplished (and in most cases made faster for less money) on the cMP.

It should also be pointed out that the newest MOTU TB hardware runs under USB2 as well as TB, and from reports at Gearbutz, USB is working great.
Yep, I can confirm that the 24 Ao, and the 8M work flawlessly using USB 2, or 3!
If Apple doesn't announce any news about the Mac Pro in the upcoming WWDC, perhaps they are waiting for the release of the new Intel processor, "Kaby Lake". In the meantime, I've decided to ride this out and see what happens in the next few months...

Check this out: http://www.macrumors.com/2016/05/31/int ... 16-launch/
Great family and friends!

Mac Studio M2 Max, MacPro 8 core (trashcan), MacBook Pro 16 in 2023, OSX Ventura, DP 11, Pro Tools, Logic Pro X, Motu 112D, 24Ao, 8M, 896 MKIII, UA Apollo 16, Waves Horizon, Slate Everything Bundle, Plugin Alliance Bundle, UAD-2 Satellite DSP Accelerator, UAD Apollo Twin.
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waxman
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Re: Upgrading from 2009 12 core Mac Pro

Post by waxman »

Shooshie wrote: So, when you're talking about using 6 T-Bolts, you mean 6 thunderbolt ports?

Fifteen years ago, I was in the thick of a career that could have used all this stuff to great advantage. I kind of retired from all that, and now I just do little projects that I enjoy a lot. Shooshie
Hahahah I envy the low RPM you have Shooshie man...

Second verse same as the first.... 6 individual thunderbolt ports and 4 USB ports all used for different devices. 2 monitors, 2 I/O devices being a UAD Apollo16 and an Apollo Twin, a Buffalo tbolt recording drive and a UAD Octo. All on 6 different Tbolt ports on the Trash can. One monitor is an Apple Cinema Thunderbolt display so it is a straight plug in Tbolt. The other is an adapter HDMI to Tbolt.

I daisy chain a UAD Quad into the FW 800 port on the Apple Thunderbolt Cinema display. The Raven gets the only HDMI port on the trash can and a USB 3 port. A USB3 port on another Buffalo drive that has all the VI instruments. I have an additional powered 6 port USB3 Hub. That hub has a Korg Kronos X 88. A NI Komplete Kontrol S61, A NI Maschine Studio, a Roland 800 controller, a TD30 Roland Pad set, a Card reader and a printer. I HAVE NO MIDI CABLES... all MIDI is over USB.

Yeah it all sounds like dizziness but the take away is this... "THE TRASH CAN HAS INCREDIBLE I/O and LOTS OF IT." It ALL WORKS no lag, clog and no problems. That is priceless for me. I am running big rock and pop projects through here that need to work with no hiccups. Lot's players and o-dubs. All kinds of different scenario's everyday.

Many of the clients come from traditional studio backgrounds and they are hearing and seeing the plugs and VI's have caught up with the traditional Analog hardware studio. I am a big Fan of Steve Slates eco system. He is nailing it. Add the UAD 2 eco system and it really is EVERY THING... Except I still need a NEVE 8816 Summer because the summing on the TRASH CAN still can't do what the summing boxes can do... the computers just crap out.

KWIZ has all kinds of cool I/O gear happening along with a hybrid analog digital ecosystem. While I agree if you can just hot rod a 2012 tower and save $$$ as long as it meets your needs that is better. But if you need I/O and compatibility it's time to go Mac Pro trash can. IMO...

So Shooshie I agree don't underestimate your i/o is causing some issues that you are blaming on the OSX. The first step I would take if I were you would be an Apollo Twin. It will replace a lot of your current gear. Someday I hope to be in a kinder gentler place you are in where a guy can just do what he LIKES.

Alas for now it's hay making time for me and I gotta have the stuff to do it because the clients I have know what they want. Manu have their own home rigs.

This afternoon I did 3 different projects in and out over 6 hours. Complete take down and going from a final mix, to O'dub guitars and bg vocals. A songwriting demo the guy brought in his loop pedal then added a work vocal and the drummer did 3 BFD3 MIDI tracks on the TD30. Lastly a girl singer testing out the studio with her producer to see if she wants to do her project here. I was going from 1024 down to 128 latency settings to accommodate the TD 30 drum pad tracks.

Before they left the girl and her producer asked to start Tuesday. I am charging $800 a day or $150 and hour but it's worth it because we work fast and efficient and the projects end up costing less then the laptop bedroom guys. Not to mention imo it sounds right...

I owned a state of art 24 track studio in the late 80s and another in the 90s. I could not afford to do what I do now in a traditional analog studio... to much $$$s in hardware gear, drywall and wood. Today I am hard pressed to spend $100k on everything. No big room and ISO needed. :headbang:
waxman
DP9.5, Macbook Pro (2018) Mojave, Slate VMS mic, Everything Bundle, Dual Raven MTI 2, Apollo Twin Quad, UAD Arrow, UAD Satellite Octo Tbolt and all the UAD plugs, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate & Arturia V Collection 6, Maschine Studio MK3 Hardware, NI Komplete Kontrol 61s MK 2, Spectrasonics Ominisphere, Superior Drummer, BFD3, Ozone 7, Altiverb, Sound Toys, Waves, Final Cut X. PT 11.
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Re: Upgrading from 2009 12 core Mac Pro

Post by HCMarkus »

Yep, I can confirm that the 24 Ao, and the 8M work flawlessly using USB 2, or 3!
Thanks Kwiz... I may grab a 16a in the near future. Great conversion in the new MOTU boxes.
we work fast and efficient and the projects end up costing less then the laptop bedroom guys. Not to mention imo it sounds right...
Methinks the gear is important, yes, but Waxie's expertise is priceless! :D
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Shooshie
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Re: Upgrading from 2009 12 core Mac Pro

Post by Shooshie »

HCMarkus wrote:Methinks the gear is important, yes, but Waxie's expertise is priceless! :D
I'll second that! Thanks, Waxman! and HC. In fact, everyone contributing to this thread has helped me immensely! Hardware is something I think about every 5 years till I get it all going again, then I forget about it and sleep the sleep of software dreams until I start detecting signs of struggle or that faint mothball smell of obsolescence. Then it's time to find out where we are again. Fortunately, we're all doing the same sleep, but on different cycles, so someone always has the latest. Whew!

This time we're looking at Giant Steps, and the changes are mind-bending. But from the grapevine buzz, it seems like those steps aren't unrewarded. I just... wish I could sleep a little longer!!! Back when I was drawing a paycheck, I didn't worry about all this. Now, I'm living about 70% off investments, and when they're down you don't dare withdraw anything, and even with all that "wealth" sitting there, you learn what it's like to be poor again. I'm reliving my student days, trying to stretch out these retirement years. Maybe I'll have to hang my logo on a shingle and get back in the trade. Now we're talkin' nightmares! No sleep for Shooshie!

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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Re: Upgrading from 2009 12 core Mac Pro

Post by waxman »

I hear you Shooshie man... But if you find the doors open just go with it... You can sleep when you split the planet. hehehe... I thought I was done in 2011. Sold all my stuff except a mac laptop, whatever copy of DP I was on, a small USB key controller, a bass, guitar and a ukelele and one shure 57. I thought I'd be writing love songs to myself the rest of the way...

I started managing some local video productions and managing a fine artist. FF to late 2013 the next thing I know BAM I get a offered a sound track so I bought a little bit of gear to make that happen but mostly learned how much cool stuff was in DP. A few months later I get a huge contract and a few years later that leads to more clients then ever. I'm literally as busy as anytime in my career. But as always it's a house of cards. At this point the words out and the phones ringing so I'm going with it...

Shooshie look up every once and while and make sure the buzzards are not circling. :shock:
waxman
DP9.5, Macbook Pro (2018) Mojave, Slate VMS mic, Everything Bundle, Dual Raven MTI 2, Apollo Twin Quad, UAD Arrow, UAD Satellite Octo Tbolt and all the UAD plugs, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate & Arturia V Collection 6, Maschine Studio MK3 Hardware, NI Komplete Kontrol 61s MK 2, Spectrasonics Ominisphere, Superior Drummer, BFD3, Ozone 7, Altiverb, Sound Toys, Waves, Final Cut X. PT 11.
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Shooshie
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Re: Upgrading from 2009 12 core Mac Pro

Post by Shooshie »

waxman wrote:Shooshie look up every once and while and make sure the buzzards are not circling. :shock:
Heck, those things are always circling. Here in Texas we call them sky chickens. Those big California types fry up real nice.

Shoosh
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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