Need DP Surround Mixing Advice (lots of it)

[dix]

Anyone out there use DP for surround mixing willing to offer me some help?

I'm mixing a short 5.1 project in DP and don't have much experience with DP's surround capabilities. I've used surround in DP for theatrical installations extensively, but not so much working to picture as this project calls for. I have some basic questions.

1 - Which panners do you use and why? There's a lot of options available in DP. I'm not sure what's best for what. I'm finding the n-panners in Asymmetrical mode the most predictable for stereo tracks (most of the sound effects are stereo tracks).

2 - Are any of the panners in DP close to the default in ProTools? I know a lot of PT users that are helping me, so I'd like to be on the same page as them.

3 - What's the deal with the LFE defaulting to the Off position? When would you not want/not want LFE going to the sub channel?

4 - Do you assign every track in the project to a 5.1 buss with a 5.1 panner, or do you leave some stereo?

Any advice on basic surround workflow in DP (specifically) would be appreciated. Also, if there's any DP tutorials online about surround mixing I'd love to see them.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give!

[mikehalloran]

You need to be familiar with Audio Bundles, Chapter 13 in the DP 9 User Guide.

A nice overview is found in this old SOS article that refers to DP 3. The basics haven't changed that much.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr02/a ... round9.asp

[dix]

Thanks Mike. This article is a great resource for learning surround concepts. I guess I'm a bit beyond what's in there in terms of DP workflow. My above questions aren't answered really (are they?).

The main takeaway I get from that old SOS article is that despite making a competitive, arguably superior, surround DAW, DP still has no traction in the mixing-to-picture market after 14 years. With all these amazing surround features built into DP (with PT you have to buy the plugins to do surround mixing) you'd think there'd be more people using them.

[dix]

Bump.

Really, no one mixing surround for picture in DP that can offer some basic advice?

Thanks!

[magicd]

1 - Which panners do you use and why? There's a lot of options available in DP. I'm not sure what's best for what. I'm finding the n-panners in Asymmetrical mode the most predictable for stereo tracks (most of the sound effects are stereo tracks).

The n-Panner and TriPan are similar. The TriPan provides additional controls for divergence and 2 or 3 knob mode. See page 822 in the DP manual for descriptions of individual parameter control.

2 - Are any of the panners in DP close to the default in ProTools? I know a lot of PT users that are helping me, so I'd like to be on the same page as them.

Sorry I don't use ProTools so I can't help you with this.

3 - What's the deal with the LFE defaulting to the Off position? When would you not want/not want LFE going to the sub channel?

Traditional 5.1 mixing is not supposed to use the LFE channel as a sub-woofer for a two-way system. The surround speakers are supposed to be full range and the LFE channel is used for Low Frequency Effects. For example it wouldn't be typical to route a voice track to the LFE channel.

4 - Do you assign every track in the project to a 5.1 buss with a 5.1 panner, or do you leave some stereo?

That's entirely up to you. Unlike ProTools you can have overlapping bundles so if you wanted a stereo track that was only in left and right you could have that specific output. If you had a mono vocal and wanted to send that directly to the center speaker you could do that.

I use subgroups if I want to put a common effect on a group of tracks. Perhaps you want to EQ your music tracks but not apply the EQ to Foley or vocal tracks. Subgroups allow you to do that. I typically start by just sending all the tracks to the same surround output bundle and setting up a surround master fader. I'll go to aux trackjs and subgroups as needed.

Dave

[dix]

Thanks so much Dave! This is all very clear.

Re panners, I understand the descriptions. I guess I'm looking for real world examples of when one would use which and why.

Re LFE, Got it! So, traditionally the only thing that would show up on the 6th/.1 track would be special LFE effects, not the LFE from the entire mix. That's good info to have and makes sense. In my case when mixing stereo music tracks I send it all to the crossover, mainly to alert me to any sub info that my near fields aren't presenting (mainly as reference. I don't usually final a music mix w the sub on). When mixing 5.1 I have been only sending signal to the sub via the LFE faders in DP, but the info you gave me tells me that's not the best way to work. Better would be to Patch the sub in as I do when working in stereo (as reference) and then only send specific things to the sub. ...i'm kind of thinking out loud here. please let me know if this method doesn't sound right.

Thanks again! This is very useful.

[magicd]

As always there are no absolute rules. Whatever gets you there. In my experience mixing surround for film is very different than mixing music for surround. In film surround the center speaker is often reserved for dialog for example.

Most of my surround mixing has been for music and you can be as creative as you want with that. But here is an example of what can go wrong: I was helping my buddy Al remix some old Blues Project tracks. He did all sort of dramatic things by having horns in the back speakers etc. We burned a DVD and he played it back on his home theatre system. It sounded totally wrong. Turned out he had the back speakers wired opposite and one speaker was out of phase. He had never noticed this before because all the surround stuff he'd heard before was very conservative in terms of placement. Your surround mix will only sound right is the playback system is properly set.

In terms of panners, the Arc panner is good to use if you have an actual joystick that you use to control position. As mentioned the TriPan and N panner are similar with the TriPan having more options. The TriPan is my go-to surround panner. The Auralizer provides doppler shift and relative ambience. It's very good if you are animating the signal and want it to sound as "real" as possible.

Dave

Thanks so much Dave! This is all very clear.

Re panners, I understand the descriptions. I guess I'm looking for real world examples of when one would use which and why.

Re LFE, Got it! So, traditionally the only thing that would show up on the 6th/.1 track would be special LFE effects, not the LFE from the entire mix. That's good info to have and makes sense. In my case when mixing stereo music tracks I send it all to the crossover, mainly to alert me to any sub info that my near fields aren't presenting (mainly as reference. I don't usually final a music mix w the sub on). When mixing 5.1 I have been only sending signal to the sub via the LFE faders in DP, but the info you gave me tells me that's not the best way to work. Better would be to Patch the sub in as I do when working in stereo (as reference) and then only send specific things to the sub. ...i'm kind of thinking out loud here. please let me know if this method doesn't sound right.

Thanks again! This is very useful.