using DP live

[insch]

Any experienced users of DP or MachFive in live performance out there?

I'm putting together a live set and this is where I've got to:

I have 16 pieces of music as separate Chunks, each with a number of audio tracks - some long textures/drones that aren’t locked to bar lines and others as loops. These tracks are grouped into folders depending on their place in the piece - Part 1a, Part 1b, Part 1c, Part 2 etc. My pieces tend to be quite linear rather than ABA or verse/chorus structure.

I need to be able to trigger different elements of a piece in mid performance, ideally using a MIDI foot controller so I can focus on playing rather than being hunched over a laptop. I am wondering how to achieve this in DP. I am not aware of how to play enable a group of tracks with a MIDI command. One thought I had was creating a DP Song for each piece utilising several chunks with different elements of the piece in them. I could create each chunk at 20 mins or so so it will just run and run until I want to go to the elements in the Song which I could trigger with a MIDI pedal. But this would rely on me being able to do a seamless 'jump to next chunk’ within a DP Song. Is this possible? And with a MIDI command?

Or MachFive could be another way forward? Or maybe I need to bite the bullet and go for Ableton Live?

Thanks

[insch]

ps I have up to around 20 tracks of audio in any individual chunk.

[mwilloam]

I've been doing something similar for about 2 years working with a 5 piece music group for rehearsal and live shows. We play upwards of 16 songs and use DP and chunks for playback with a click and backing tracks and I use an 828mkiiih with Cuemix to provide headphone mixes for each performer.

Just recently I've started having my keyboard player use Machfive(now Falcon) as their live intrument from a V-Rack in the same DP project. The great thing is that they don't even have to mess with patch/effects changes etc ... it's all automated.

In terms of chunks, each song is a chunk and so far, I've chose to just "cue chunks" where after one ends(manual end set) it opens the next chunk. I just then hit space bar when we are ready for countoff. Works great.

There is the option to "chain chunks" which cause the next chunk to automatically start playing. The big issue with this, I've noticed, is that there is a short latency, gap, before it starts. In order to have one Chunk seamlessly proceed into the next(not miss a beat, pun intended), you seem to have to create a Song with the Chunks. That causes them to flow one to next. I can't remember why this was a little messy for me last time I used it, but it was. Ideally, it would be great if chaining chunks would not have that delay. Maybe someone with greater Song knowledge and experience can chime in.

Here's a vid from MOTU on it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFZX56GMseo

[insch]

Thanks. I am aware of the gaps that chaining Chunks create. I had hoped that that wouldn't happen when working with Songs - I guess I'll just have to try. The V-rack approach is a good one.

[mwilloam]

V-Racks definitely good for any live VIs or even effects that may be common for multiple chunks as it will cut down on resources(memory).

Using a Song will work and I have used it where it seamlessly flows one to the other. There's also the ability to create the Song then generate a single chunk with all of the song's chunks. So in essence you get a 16chunk long sequence. Which could be good or bad for different reasons. Think that was in MOTU's vid. I assume the reason for the delay with chain chunks is that DP will wait to load the sequence only when it's active and not before. Perhaps with a song it pre-loads all of them. Probably easy to test by viewing ram usage with either.

Can remember off top of head and don't have manual in front of me but thought you could assign MIDI commands(note/cc) for thing like changing chunk and automating track groups. Not sure.

[insch]

Thanks. I think I need to do some more experimenting. I still have to work out how to bring different parts in in one piece of music - maybe 'Track 1 Chunk A', 'Track 1 Chunk B' will be the way - all embedded in a Song 'Track 1'. Maybe...

[Shooshie]

There is a gap between chunks when chaining.
The need to turn on sections seamlessly can only be done, as far as I know, by clicking off the Mute button in the mixing board (or play enabling from the Tracks window). I do not know of a way to connect these to a pedal or other trigger, though you might check and see if there is a way to do that in Custom Consoles. I've never needed it, so I have never looked to see if it will do that. If it can do it, then that would be your answer.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

I just checked the manual. On page 659 of the DP8 manual (sorry; I don't have a hard copy of DP9's manual) there is a picture of a custom console being used for a Mute button. Explore this. If you can create a mute button in Custom Consoles, you can connect it to ANY MIDI CONTROLLER!

If you can do that, you can turn on and off various tracks or groups of tracks. I'd create a group of tracks (see Create New Group in the Mixing Board Mini Menu) for each "thing" you want to be able to control. Group them so that if you turn on one track, the rest also play enable.

Now create a custom console for a mute command, and apply it to one of those tracks.
Connect the Custom Console to a MIDI Command. When you hit that command, the group comes on. You can use the same command to tell another console to turn OFF another group. Thus, you can completely change the texture of the music instantly while playing.
You should be ready to go!

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

As far as calling a sequence on cue, the option you can use spontaneously (not premeditated in a Song) is to go into the Commands Window and apply a command which calls the sequence. You can use the keys on a computer keyboard, or a MIDI command. Turn on the Master for that section of the Commands Window, and then your alphabet on the keyboard will call sequences. The master can also be assigned a MIDI or keyboard command, so you would learn a sequence of calls as necessary.

The problem with calling sequences is, as I stated in my first post, the gap between sequences. You can't call a section seamlessly, and even if you could, it's doubtful that you could call it precisely in time, so that there wasn't a sudden jag in the rhythm. So, you have to plan your section changes, with all players in on it, by coming to a pause. Maybe someone is holding; maybe the drummer is doing a riff, or a player is doing a brief solo. Then hit the cue. You can start it with a blank first bar, possibly a short bar, with some headphone countoff. Even four 16th notes could be your countoff. This would enable you to cue the other players for the downbeat of the new sequence you just called.

I used this kind of thing extensively for 20 years of live playing. We had Yamaha Disklaviers, which are grand pianos with retrofitted MIDI operated player mechanisms. I'd use the keyboard shift, also known as the Soft Pedal, which would rock the entire piano keyboard to the right and back to the left. Doing this a couple times made for a good countoff for an upcoming bar after a fermata.

There are all kinds of tricks. You just have to work with what you've got.

Shooshie

[Dwetmaster]

Two things I've noticed when using DP live are:
1- It's faster to jump from a chunk to another if you just use a "Next Chunk" key command rather than Stopping -> Cueing the next chunk -> Hit play. Somehow, DP seems to take time redrawing the next chunk for nothing. So just let your chunk play and hit the NEXT button while it's playing. The next chunk playback will start right away and then the GUI will follow. It's pretty solid IF you don't have intensive plugins in the following chunk.

2- The less thing you're showing on the screen, the faster it will take to switch from a chunk to another. Don't show the mixer if you don't ABSOLUTELY need it while you're playing.

[Shooshie]

2- The less things you're showing on the screen, the faster it will take to switch from a chunk to another. Don't show the mixer if you don't ABSOLUTELY need it while you're playing.

This is important advice for using DP live. SIMPLIFY! Don't think that you've got your whole studio with you on stage. Plugins create too much latency for that to be practical. You might get by with a simple compression or plate reverb plugin, but only on the master track or on one instrument track or aux. You start chaining these things, and you will end up with a half-second latency. Can't be done when performing live.

For that matter, the most practical application is to record all the tracks you may want to use, then just bring them in or out with a command. There, you're dealing with almost zero latency. Chunks load quickly, and there is little to go wrong. It's not as romantic as being the guy who can improvise infinite creativity on the spot, but from the audience perspective, there is no difference. You bring in a pre-recorded track, it sounds to them the same as if you called all those instruments together on a whim. Being a music director in this age is (partly) smoke and mirrors.

But if you have a sudden pause while the CPU catches up.... they DO hear that.

Shooshie

[bayswater]

The problem with calling sequences is, as I stated in my first post, the gap between sequences. You can't call a section seamlessly, and even if you could, it's doubtful that you could call it precisely in time, so that there wasn't a sudden jag in the rhythm.

This is where Dr T KCS shone. Up to 99 sequences each with their own tempo and loop parameters, started and stopped with no delays or glitches with a single key press. AFAIK, no one does that any more.

[Shooshie]

The problem with calling sequences is, as I stated in my first post, the gap between sequences. You can't call a section seamlessly, and even if you could, it's doubtful that you could call it precisely in time, so that there wasn't a sudden jag in the rhythm.

This is where Dr T KCS shone. Up to 99 sequences each with their own tempo and loop parameters, started and stopped with no delays or glitches with a single key press. AFAIK, no one does that any more.

Even Performer did a better job than DP. Probably would be the same in DP if you turned off the audio engine. It's just that digital audio has latency, and it's pretty hard to avoid it. I can imagine a programmer creating a look-ahead into the next sequence, then testing its latency, then cuing it up with all those things in mind, but I don't see that happening in my lifetime!

Most shows and concerts reach an equilibrium after a while, when the performers figure out what works best for their audiences, and after that point there's no need for a lot of impromptu set changes. Once you start doing the same show every night, you just simplify the sequences to the most basic and most important thing required. You could even do it all in a single sequence, just bringing in or muting other tracks as needed.

It's nice to think of doing "jazz" with your set list, but few MIDI/DAW performers ever actually reach such a state of nirvana with their systems.

Shoosh

[insch]

I just checked the manual. On page 659 of the DP8 manual (sorry; I don't have a hard copy of DP9's manual) there is a picture of a custom console being used for a Mute button. Explore this. If you can create a mute button in Custom Consoles, you can connect it to ANY MIDI CONTROLLER!

If you can do that, you can turn on and off various tracks or groups of tracks. I'd create a group of tracks (see Create New Group in the Mixing Board Mini Menu) for each "thing" you want to be able to control. Group them so that if you turn on one track, the rest also play enable.

Now create a custom console for a mute command, and apply it to one of those tracks.
Connect the Custom Console to a MIDI Command. When you hit that command, the group comes on. You can use the same command to tell another console to turn OFF another group. Thus, you can completely change the texture of the music instantly while playing.
You should be ready to go!

Shooshie

Sorry, just realsied that there had been some more replies here. The console approach could be a good way forward. I am trying it out but haven't got it fully working yet. Managed to mute a track but couldn't un-mute it. The idea of creating groups of tracks that can be activated in this way is a good one. Thank you.

[insch]

And thank you to everyone who's come up with ideas. I think muting and un-muting groups of tracks within a chunk could be the way forward for me - a way of bringing new elements into a piece of music without glitches and gaps. I've just got to work out exactly how to make this happen!