Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendation

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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by zuul-studios »

Guitar Gaz wrote:
guitardood wrote:I've been using Toontrack's Latin Percussion EZX and think it is pretty cool. Works in Superior and EzDrummer.

https://www.toontrack.com/product/latin-percussion-ezx/
I agree - it's good and works for me.
+1

ToonTrack's Superior Drummer 2 and its Latin Percussion EZX are new to my instrumental libraries. So far, so good. (Meets my modest needs. Good, clean sound. Very configurable. So far, no crashes with my set-up.) Also, Toontrack's Latin Percussion EZX has timbales.
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by mhschmieder »

I am finding the actual display easier to work with in EZ Drummer, but it looks like the editing and selection might be easier in Superior.

For those of us who own both, is there any advantage to loading EZX packs in Superior vs. EZ Drummer? Any "hidden features" that only become available once running inside Superior?

I'm hoping to do my final timbales (the original poster's primary request) shootout later today. I need to invest time in getting deeper on EZ and Superior first though, as I don't yet know how to find what articulations are available that maybe aren't assigned by default.

As I said before, I will continue using BFD for its massive velocity layers and extended articulation handling, unless one of the other options is a hands-down win sonically or otherwise.
Last edited by mhschmieder on Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by David Polich »

Flying Hand Percussion has been my go-to
percussion library for some time now. There
is a timbale set in that that not only includes
several different timbales, but also two octaves
of articulations with a different articulation (rolls,
flams, rims, etc) on each key. It comes in
Kontakt 5 format.

The sampling is extremely high quality.

I cant remember the exact website where
you can get it but just do a search for
Flying Hand Percussion
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by mhschmieder »

Flying Hand goes on sale frequently, but I think its most recent sale ended.

I bought it probably about a year ago during one of the sales, but haven't used it yet. My quick run-through of it, was impressive. Good to hear it has so many articulations. I'll be sure to include it in my latin percussion shootout vs. my longstanding BFD Percussion defaults tonight or tomorrow.
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by mhschmieder »

OK, now that I'm off jury duty, I'm back in full swing, and am at the point where I am reviewing all of the non-drum percussion sounds on my jazz album, starting with timbales.

I can't use the Flying Hand timbales as it's a 14"/15" set (common in Cuban music and outdoor festival use) and I prefer the more common 13"/14" set. I want my timbales to "snap" and "crack" at a higher pitch than the largest set is capable of doing.

The EZDrummer Latin Percussion library is quite nice, but I am reading mixed reviews of Meinl timbales, depending on the model. Also mixed reports on Pearl, but surprisingly universal praise of Latin Percussion.

Mostly this has to do with the lugs and the tuning mechanism as well as the cowbell holder and what types of skins ship with them. Not so much of concern in sample libraries as the library vendor will have made their own choices anyway.

The Slingerland set in BFD Percussion is from the 60's and isn't too well thought of compared to their earlier takeover of the Leedy set in the 50's that had previously been made by Conn in the 40's. Also, it is steel instead of the preferred brass (or bronze, even copper at times can be had and is better than steel). Slingerland brass models are more widely respected than this still set in BFD.

Of the older sets, Ludwig is the one to stay away from as it was a rock kit and not appropriate for latin music. Most of the modern timbales are poorly made, and this would reflect in sample libraries as well, as the cascara would have poor resonance (or the wrong pitch).

BFD is eminently customizable, and I heavily tweaked the raw timbale samples to remove almost all resonance as timbales mix the best when dry. Too much resonance and it overpowers the main tone and also can conflict with other kit pieces and have an impact on the perceived polyrhythm.

Generally the most desired models are the old Rogers and Leedy (Conn-made) sets, as well as Ludwig before the 60's when they reoriented their timbales to appeal to crossover artists from rock. Also Gretsch, but one probably needs to be real specific about what years of manufacture.

Note that there is some conflictive advice regarding Ludwig (and also Slingerland), so they may have made several sets and some people may not be aware of that and could have drawn false conclusions from the limited exposure they had (it is hard to track down info on such stuff as it wasn't well documented at the time).

Of current models, the consensus seems to be that the LP Tito Puente set is the best, but I don't think anyone has sampled those.

In terms of sample library usability, you want a maximum number of articulations, which in this case means different strike areas of the head, edge, rim. Flying Hand excels in this area; it is too bad that they chose the larger set that is more oriented towards outdoors street festivals.

The EZ Drummer library offset six articulations: right open; left open; rim shot; side stroke; flam; ruff.

BFD unfortunately considers timbales to just be generic snares, so offers these five articulations: hit; drag; flam; rim shot; side stick.

Flying Hand is the only one that offers several alternate positions from the rim to the center of the head. I may try it again and see if it can be "tuned", and in such a way that the cascara resonance doesn't conflict with the "up-tuning" of the "heads" (i.e. the "samples").

Please note that the term cascara refers both to the shells as well as to a specific common rhythm pattern. in my use I am referring specifically to the timbale shell sides.

So I've covered a lot of details about authenticity and history, to provide context, and also materials and manufacture style. Even new LP's are said by some old-timers to use the wrong kind of lugs and tuning system, but I suspect a sample library vendor has time to take care of any such issues and put on good calf-skin heads etc, so that many of these issues with real timbales are less important in the sample library world.

This means the main criteria are pitch and resonance. This still leads to a preference of a 13"/14" set in most cases, and brass (or in a pinch, bronze or copper) vs. steel for the shells.

Unlike BFD, EZDrummer doesn't divulge details about the specific models they sampled, as far as I can tell. The image in EZD Latin Percussion appears to be of a copper (or bronze, but probably not brass) set from Meinl, probably meaning the controversial Luis Conte high-end model that gets mixed reviews but seems to be liked for its tone.

That was a lot of research I just did, but I have owned several LP-branded timbal sets over the years (though a long time ago), so I wanted to find out more about the instrument as LP was the only brand I knew for latin stuff up until about a decade ago. I don't like the brand much anymore so wanted to see what people say about Meinl timbales plus the older Slingerland set.

It doesn't seem that any of the other timbal libraries (or timbales within larger libraries) say much about what was sampled. I recommend sticking to the three libraries mentioned here; I've already gone through all my alternate sources and none of them have enough detail, layers, or articulations and frankly all sound like cardboard compared to EZD, BFD and Flying Hand.
Last edited by mhschmieder on Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by mhschmieder »

For some reason, EZX Latin Percussion sounds better in Superior than EZDrummer. The latter seems to have some hidden "pre-mix" stuff going on, like reverb or something. I need my timbales dry, and can only find how to achieve this in Superior, along with the ability to tune them.

It appears that BFD has a gazillion more features even than Superior, such as resonance tuning. EZDrummer appears to have almost no features at all. I think Addictive Drums might be slightly more full-features than Superior, but I haven't had a chance yet to search my AD libraries to see if there are any timbales on offer. I'll do that now.
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by mhschmieder »

Addictive Drums Session Percussion expansion came out a year or so ago; I had forgotten about it.

It includes the 14"/15" steel version of the LP Tito Puente model. Tuned quite high, surprisingly, such that it is higher pitched even than a typical tuned-up 13"/14" set.

They tuned it at about a major second interval; I generally tune timbales to roughly a perfect fourth or tritone, like agogos and many other latin bells and drums that are frequently used in pairs.

It's quite dry at least.

You can tune the drums in AD, but I didn't see a way to affect the resonant frequency or its level.

Also, they only expose open hits and rim shots, so I can't see this library being very useful.

Bizarrely, they assign their timbales to tom slots instead of snare slots.
Last edited by mhschmieder on Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by mhschmieder »

Correction on the EZD timbales, as they actually are a 14"/15" set after all and are brass:

http://meinlpercussion.com/products/Pro ... -TIMBALES/

That is the ONLY hammered shell set that Meinl makes, so MUCH be what Toontrack sampled.
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by mhschmieder »

Just to confirm, the following timbal sources are useless either due to only being patterns vs. single hits, or of the resolution level (or lower) of a Korg M1 :-) presented in descending order of utility:

Kontakt: Core Library: World Percussion (more articulations than Flying Hand, but only 20 MB)
NI Cuba (quality recording, but seems geared towards loop-based music)
Vir2 World Impact (low resolution and poorly pitched etc.)
Vir2 Elite Orchestral Percussion (wrong version of timbale for latin stuff)
EWQL Storm Drum 2 (only 8 MB total!)
MOTU Ethno 2 (only 2 MB total!)
Orange Tree Samples Timbales (Xmas freebie as I recall; weird pitch and tiny sample size)

For flexibility alone, I'd recommend playing with the Kontakt Core Library timbales as a way of better learning the variety of sounds that timbales can produce, from whence you can better judge which articulations you can't live without when looking at more deeply sampled latin libraries.

It's possible that NI Cuba derives from this core set, or even that Flying Hand was behind it, and that the scripting is simply different for these three libraries.
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by mhschmieder »

OK, I am done with my review, and I can ONLY recommend BFD Percussion and NO OTHER for timbales. With the slight caveat that the Kontakt Core and Cuba libraries (and maybe Flying Hand) have enough articulations and head positions for strikes that they MIGHT work OK if buried in the mix (I generally only use timbales as a solo fill instrument, nakedly exposed).

The reason is that it is at least ten times as detailed as the next library on the list, in terms of velocity layers as well as how it handles quick back-to-back articulations, and it even interprets the velocity layers appropriately as different head positions with consequent attenuation of pitch towards the rim.

Most importantly, one of the most common timbal playing styles is to quickly cross-stick an open hit that is half-muted by a rim shot. Only BFD Percussion can handle this critical core technique!

FWIW the raw sound of the LP Tito Puente set in AD sounds better than the Meinl Luis Conte set in EZD, but the latter has more articulations and uniquely offers left vs. right open hits, which can add more life and naturalness. Too bad the sound is lacking detail and variance; no dynamic range.
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by mhschmieder »

I can now pretty much make the same blanket statement for bongos and congas: BFD Percussion is king, and by a long shot at that. So much more depth, fluidity, parameter tweaking, and realism.

AcousticSamples Percussive is low-res. The other UVI library that covers bongos and congas but not timbales, is Percussion Store, which isn't nearly as detailed as BFD Percussion but does have a variety of articulations and also offers several models (fiberglass, traditional tapered Cuban style, wooden Latin style).

I may look into UVI Percussion Store a bit more, as I only bought it recently and haven't studied the manual. If I find that it can match BFD Percussion in quality and versatility, I'll post a followup.
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by musicman691 »

mhschmieder wrote: So I've covered a lot of details about authenticity and history, to provide context, and also materials and manufacture style. Even new LP's are said by some old-timers to use the wrong kind of lugs and tuning system, but I suspect a sample library vendor has time to take care of any such issues and put on good calf-skin heads etc, so that many of these issues with real timbales are less important in the sample library world.gets mixed reviews but seems to be liked for its tone.
FYI LP timbales have been shipping with plastic heads since at least 2012. So they'd have to be changed out. Problem with calf skin heads is keeping up with humidity changes.
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by pacificm »

Wow! What a great review. Thanks for all of the effort that went into it.

It sounds like BFD is getting some of the best recommendations. I haven't used any BFD yet. I went to the BFD site. It was not clear to me visiting the site, which package would have the Timbale/Latin Percussion instruments in them. Please recommend what package you would recommend with these instruments.

Thanks!
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by musicman691 »

pacificm wrote:Wow! What a great review. Thanks for all of the effort that went into it.

It sounds like BFD is getting some of the best recommendations. I haven't used any BFD yet. I went to the BFD site. It was not clear to me visiting the site, which package would have the Timbale/Latin Percussion instruments in them. Please recommend what package you would recommend with these instruments.

Thanks!
Was already mentioned in one of his posts - the Percussion add-on library. Unfortunately fxpansion no longer says what instruments are included in their libraries. Download the manual at this page: https://www.fxpansion.com/products/bfdx ... ercussion/ and the instruments are listed there. Remember that you'll also need BFD 2.1 at a minimum to use this library. Do be aware that BFD stuff is pretty much download only although they used to at one time offer the core program on a memory stick (don't know if that's still viable).
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Re: Timbale/Latin Percussion Virtual Instrument Recommendati

Post by mhschmieder »

Yeah, I bought it when it came out, and ironically had complaints at the time (which are buried somewhere in this forum, actually, but you'll probably never find them as the comments are 8-10 years old by now).

Little did I know that no one would come along to surpass the excellent work of John Emrich, and once I learned how to edit the sounds in BFD I realized that many of my initial observations were off-base.

One of my main criticisms at the time was that they didn't necessarily pick the best examples of each instrument, so I thought maybe they used whatever people had in their garages. :-)

As it turns out though, most of the library at least samples instruments that are above-average for their kind, and other vendors have unfortunately taken the garage sale approach for the most part, which also tells you how clueless most sample library vendors are about ethnic instruments of any sort. Often they think of them as background flavors for movie soundtrack work, and only that.

Although I have an exhaustive 72-page long crib sheet of sound sources that I keep active and generally try to keep prioritized and detailed, it would be too time-consuming for me to try to extract the list of what is in BFD Percussion. Hopefully the link above is good enough. It is a shame that fxpansion re-did their website and took away the kit piece audition feature.

BTW if you need a cuica, Sonokinetic released one around Christmas time. I have it and have tried it out, and it is quite good, but I don't know if it can be tuned up (haven't had time to try) so am still using my primary source, which possibly you can buy cheaply as a subset of the full VSL Percussion library now that they have downloads for everything they sell. The VSL cuica is remarkable in how many different sounds it offers. A cuica can get annoying fast if you only rotate between two or three sounds as with agogos.

For some reason, BFD didn't include cuica, but arrogantly boasted that their percussion library already has everything it could possibly have and so they also threw in samples of a kitchen sink. I really roasted them over that statement and gave them a set-to. Those are the kinds of statements can cause one to lose faith in a vendor, as credentials and knowledge are a prerequisite for this stuff.

Surprisingly, the cuica in the core Kontakt library (along with much of the latin percussion therein) is well-sampled and has more sounds than a lot of for-pay libraries. Perhaps one day they'll provide a more detailed library for pay, if the original sample sessions captured more data.
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