Steinway library

[Morpheo]

I don't quite know where to put this thread, but I'll take a chance in here

I'm mostly doing film music and often have to use pianos, whether it's for "early drafts" or final delivery. Sometimes I'm starting with the "fake" one and later we record a real piano - sometimes the VI has to stay. This is where I need a *very* good and accurate sound. Over the years I've used Ivory Grand Pianos (the one that includes Steinway, Bösendorfer and Yamaha) but didn't upgrade when Ivory II came out. And more recently Pianoteq, which I thought was pretty great - until now. After listening to its sound in a mixing room and a theater (often a variation of the D4 preset) several times, I came to the conclusion that it lacks "presence" and depth, and it becomes even more noticeable when there are real instruments around it (strings for instance). So here I am, still looking for the "best" sounding piano. Now I know there are no miracles, I am a pianist myself, and if I could afford a real Steinway there would be no discussion, except maybe which mics should I add to the beast

I'm wondering, besides Ivory is there another option I should consider? Again I'm only interested in a Steinway sound. Since I never really had any use for their Yamaha or Bösendorfer samples, should I go for their American D instead? How does it compare to the German D? Also, Pianoteq has hammer noise, Ivory doesn't (as far as I understand, or at least it's not editable), is that a problem (as I said I used Ivory before but it's been a while now...)? Pianoteq has a lot of parameters we can play with and of course it doesn't need 50GB of disk space (which isn't really a problem), but it all comes down to what I hear when I play.

So...Any suggestions? tx.

(I understand this topic must have been covered more than once so sorry about that)

[David Polich]

Do you have the very latest version of Pianoteq (Version 5.x)? For me, it stomps all over any other sampled piano, including Ivory. If you go by just the presets, then you're doing yourself a disservice. You have to dig in under the hood and do some programming with Pianoteq (although with the latest version, not near as much as in previous versions).

In a mix, it will still be a matter of EQ and compression to get Pianoteq to "sit" nicely, just as it is with every other piano VI. But considering that you can literally build your own piano, set up any combination and position of a wide variety of virtual microphones, customize dozens of parameters per key, run unlimited polyphony, no crossfades between layers (because there aren't any "layers"), double-press sustain pedals, adjust detune, sympathetic ringing...there just isn't any other piano VI that does that.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I'm very fond of True Keys.

http://www.vilabsaudio.com/truekeyspianos

They say it's three pianos but I'm convinced it's one piano eq'd three ways, as the same "artifact" exists on the same note in all three. Regardless, I still use the three pianos in different contexts. My quick and dirty piano is the Plugsound Pro basic grand. Sometimes I want a less powerful piano sound and will keep the PSP VI. If I had unlimited funds I'd just buy a real Fazioli for $150k and get it over with.

[Morpheo]

Do you have the very latest version of Pianoteq (Version 5.x)? For me, it stomps all over any other sampled piano, including Ivory. If you go by just the presets, then you're doing yourself a disservice. You have to dig in under the hood and do some programming with Pianoteq (although with the latest version, not near as much as in previous versions).

In a mix, it will still be a matter of EQ and compression to get Pianoteq to "sit" nicely, just as it is with every other piano VI. But considering that you can literally build your own piano, set up any combination and position of a wide variety of virtual microphones, customize dozens of parameters per key, run unlimited polyphony, no crossfades between layers (because there aren't any "layers"), double-press sustain pedals, adjust detune, sympathetic ringing...there just isn't any other piano VI that does that.

I do have the latest version - as we're often on a rush I don't have much time for programming, except for a few parameters. I know there's really a lot to like in Pianoteq, which is why I switch from Ivory in the first place. I guess I should take some time to build my own "ideal" sound and compare it with the real thing before buying a new library.

[Morpheo]

I'm very fond of True Keys.

http://www.vilabsaudio.com/truekeyspianos

They say it's three pianos but I'm convinced it's one piano eq'd three ways, as the same "artifact" exists on the same note in all three. Regardless, I still use the three pianos in different contexts. My quick and dirty piano is the Plugsound Pro basic grand. Sometimes I want a less powerful piano sound and will keep the PSP VI. If I had unlimited funds I'd just buy a real Fazioli for $150k and get it over with.

I didn't know about True Keys before - Looks interesting. Like I said above though, maybe it's wiser to spend more time with Pianoteq before looking elsewhere. It's very frustrating not having the time to properly adjust a VI just because things have to be done always too quickly.

[rnappi]

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They're having a sale 35% off or BOGOF.

Imperfect Samples Walnut Grand: http://www.imperfectsamples.com/website ... dpiano.php

Lovely piano, but purchase at your own risk. If anything goes wrong with the download, you may be waiting a long time before someone addresses your problem.

[mikehalloran]

Although my go-to is our Bösendorfer 200 with my wife playing, I've been looking for something like this as well. I have the UVI D that I got as a freebie when I bought something else. It's ok but not great.

True Keys has been the one I have liked the best overall but I might also get Pianoteq for the Blüthner which impresses me the most and the Yamaha for rock and roll.

I've not heard a Bösendorfer library that I like. They always sample the 290 Imperial Grand and mic it too closely. The worst is that Alan Parsons library — sounds like tuned woodpeckers to me. If someone would properly sample a 225, I'd be all over it — that is possibly my favorite piano ever (not that I'm unhappy with the 200 in my living room, no, no!). Our 200 has oversized bass strings to take advantage of all that hundred year old spruce and would make a great sample library if I ever took the time. I want a 290 to sound like Oscar Peterson's or Pete Townsend's with Rod Argent playing ("Who Are You").

[mikehalloran]

Another library that I'd buy if available ...

Someone should sample the Steinway A that still sits in the old RCA Studio B in Nashville. It won't sound exactly the same without Floyd Cramer behind the keys but it has that sound from Elvis, Patsy Cline and countless other hits.

[dewdman42]

I don't have it, but you should probably try Garritan's Steinway..

[mhschmieder]

I've spent an embarassing amount on piano libraries -- even recently -- as I constantly get sucked into "killer deals" that I fear I'll regret later if I don't jump.

What a fool! More than ever, I return to Pianoteq at final tracking and mixing time. I can't even come close to its organic phrasing and overall sound, and am resisting the temptation to buy into the new Hans Zimmer piano from Spitfire (almost half a terrabyte, something like 90 mic choices, etc.).

As of the latest point release update, I am now almost exclusively on the Steinway "D4" patch set in Pianoteq. I was using some other ones on jazz for a long time, and the Yamaha YC5 on rock, but the latest revisions to the D4 -- and the flexibility within the GUI -- have allowed me to tailor it for almost every style and to capture the timbre that I used to go to some of the other models for (such as C3ls or whatever it was called).

In some ways, I would say the latest couple of point release updates from Modartt have been the most significant so far, in terms of realism of the sound itself. Primarily this is due to greatly improved dynamic range and realism at every point along the way, from pppp to ffff (or even beyond). But also because the timbre is more consistent across the range now; even when giant clusters of notes are being played. Also the handling of rapid-fire repeats of the same note (common in certain styles) is without peer.

The only other piano I have that still is in the running for solo and small ensemble work, is the Ravenscroft from TruePianos. I may still consider their other pianos (including their Steinway) -- currently on sale for the holidays. Those are older but MIGHT have been updated to be as good as Ravenscroft? These are UVI/macgFive hosted libraries, but UVI is free.

I have never been able to get remotely musical sounding results from Ivory Italian II, even after a weekend of tweaking the GUI and re-tracking etc. It sounds like discrete notes no matter what, and tends to have phase issues in many phrase contexts (something that Pianoteq suffered from, to varying degrees, up until the miraculous last few updates).

At home, I have a list of piano libraries, with details about each. I can't do that from memory, so will avoid potential mistakes by saying no more at this time. If money is a huge issue though, I can at least say that Sampletekk is a great bang-for-buck vendor whose libraries tend to "play well" (e.g. sound like fluid phrasing) even if not always the most detailed (though they are updating them all quite a bit these days). Nord uses their stuff in their electric/digital pianos.

I will say, that in an orchestral arrangement I will often use Vienna Instruments Imperial -- or whatever their more expensive version of their Bosendorfer is called. This is because it is bright and thin and thus slots into the mix better in that particular context. Many people are hoping they'll eventually release a Steinway library -- especially for orchestral sound staging as opposed to soloing.

[BobK]

I like the Galaxy Vintage D, a library for Kontakt. I use it for demos. (For recording, I have a real Yamaha C6.)

[Shooshie]

I have not read all the responses, but I'm just going to add my 2¢.

The Ivory New York Steinway is possibly the best sampled piano ever made. For my piano tastes it is practically like playing the real thing. Of course, I haven't tried the good ones released since Ivory's, because essentially I stopped looking after that.

People say great things about Garritan's Steinway. It's the only officially sanctioned Steinway virtual instrument product, but that's a marketing deal, not a musical choice. Still, I would imagine that it's pretty good. Steinway isn't going to allow a release of crap with their name on it. But Ivory's New York Steinway is truly a fabulous instrument. I love seeing the faces of concert pianists who try it out on my system. It's like getting your hands on a great Steinway in a great hall. It makes you want to keep playing.

Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

"We have a skimmer!" See in MIB

[musicman691]

I have not read all the responses, but I'm just going to add my 2¢.

The Ivory New York Steinway is possibly the best sampled piano ever made. For my piano tastes it is practically like playing the real thing. Of course, I haven't tried the good ones released since Ivory's, because essentially I stopped looking after that.

People say great things about Garritan's Steinway. It's the only officially sanctioned Steinway virtual instrument product, but that's a marketing deal, not a musical choice. Still, I would imagine that it's pretty good. Steinway isn't going to allow a release of crap with their name on it. But Ivory's New York Steinway is truly a fabulous instrument. I love seeing the faces of concert pianists who try it out on my system. It's like getting your hands on a great Steinway in a great hall. It makes you want to keep playing.

Shooshie

Been there/done that and spent WAY too much time just playing, not that that is bad

I've played my fair share of real Steinways and found that a D just doesn't sound right unless the room is stellar. Played in a couple of places that just choked off the overtones and I know it's not the piano itself as that same piano in a good room sounds as good as it can possibly get. To my mind this would/should extend to a sampled Steinway. There's one I've found that sounds good no matter the room and that's a B - does anybody have a sample library that has a good B? I know there was one in the original Kontakt years back but that one wasn't that great sounding.

As an aside - I don't know if they still do it but Steinway in NYC used to offer tours of the factory. You went just about everywhere in the place and could talk to the actual craftsmen making the pianos. Ask them about their tools, look at the drawings, you name it. And the room where they stored and cured the wood - a fragrance you will never forget on the good side. Then you'd get to the room (dare I say hall) where the finished pianos were setup to play - for a piano person you didn't want to leave.

[mikehalloran]

Steinway opened a new factory store about 3 miles away in Los Altos this year. We go to their events on occasion and I enjoy talking with the factory reps and techs when they make a presentation. Not the factory tour,more course, but as close as one gets in California.

They have a B that my wife is convinced is the finest Steinway she has ever played. It's certainly one of the nicest I've heard.

I'm also a big fan of the C which doesn't sound like the B or D. Not too many of those in the US but I've really liked those I've played.