Steinway library

[mikehalloran]

Hi Mike,
originally, Garritan Personal Orchestra (GPO) did include a Steinway Grand piano, but it was not the same library or piano that is included with Finale.

OK, I have both.

[mhschmieder]

I reviewed the Galaxy II Steinway again "just in case", and it indeed falls down and gets muddy as all heck once you have a bunch of clustered notes with pedaling involved. Like most libraries, but unlike VI Labs True Keys.

I do feel the Galaxy pianos have nice timbre and are easy to work with. I was almost tempted to buy the full versions of the Version II upgrade during the 2-for-1 sale, but couldn't find anything to pair it with (Emotional Cello isn't participating) as the Chris Hein orchestral winds and jazz/pop horns don't convince me in the audio demos so I don't think they will help beyond my Sample Modeling stuff.

Due to the Bluethner being in the Galaxy collection, and not caring for the one-off library for that piano from a vendor whose name I forget, I may still grab it before the 2-for-1 from Best Service goes away (via Audio Deluxe, where there are additional loyalty mark-downs).

You can buy them piecemeal as well, and those also participate in the two-for-one sale. A logical pairing for the freebie, price-wise, might be the vintage drum library from Best Service. For me, that's a bad investment as I have so many. Still pondering whether to grab the Galaxy II updates.

[mhschmieder]

Update: there's a new top gun in town. Not so new, but not so old either.

I just bought Galaxy's Vintage D, and tried it on a couple of my jazz album tracks, where it came out on top. Mostly because it handles staccato the best of any, has a warm timbre, and no phasiness.

Bear in mind this is JUST for this context. I am using Ravenscroft on some of the tracks, and True Keys Italian as well.But I think Galaxy Vintage D will now be my top choice for Steinway, for jazz.

I didn't know until late last night that this is a different library from the Steinway in Galaxy II. That one is pretty good too, and I'll have it shortly as a freebie as I've decided to go ahead and buy their Boesendorfer library to see if it behaves better than Vienna Imperial (I took Bluethner as the freebie to go with Vintage D, but there was a screw-up at the Audio Deluxe form and now Best Service have gone to bed for the night, so hopefully I can finish working out the glitch with their excellent tech support staff in the morning). I fully expect the two "B" brands to be the best libraries for each.

The Galaxy Vintage D is based on the Steinway that was used for most of Keith Jarrett's ECM recordings.

[mhschmieder]

I unfortunately can't follow up any further on the Galaxy libraries, as I ran into a Native Instruments snag that cost me HOURS. I am getting increasingly fed up with how unreliable that company's basic software has become over the past two years.

The Galaxy II Steinway library is not recognized by NI Service Center, so I can't activate it. I tried everything, including deleting PLIST files and removing references to it in other PLIST files, reinstalling and even re-downloading a gazillion times. Hopefully the vendor will respond tomorrow.

One interesting thing though, is that The Grandeur (also from Galaxy but marketed by NI) seems a slightly more detailed version of the same Steinway sample set as that from Galaxy II (which is NOT the same Steinway piano or model as the one in my preferred Vintage D library from Galaxy).

Well, The Grandeur is newer after all. It has a different interface so it may just be idealized, while being less flexible than the extremely nice Galaxy Instruments interface, which I think may well be the best of all of the current piano interfaces in terms of how things are laid out and what can be changed by the user. Vintage D uses this same interface.

It looks like Galaxy and True Keys are going head to head in some senses, in that each has a trio library compilation augmented by a newer and more sophisticated single library.

Of course, the only commonality piano model wise is the Steinway. So, the two products augment each other quite well, and I feel they are at the top of the current heap (though Imperfect Samples still has my attention for further investigation at some point; none of the others that I ended up not buying have given me any reason to change my mind after more listening this week).

[mhschmieder]

UPDATE: As expected, Best Service was extremely quick in getting back to me. I have always found them the most responsive of all on-line computer music software sellers.

It turned out that I had to log in to the computer as root, then re-add the Galaxy II Steinway to Kontakt and authorize it as root.

Although NI Service Center still didn't see the library when launched in standalone mode, and I still got all the bogus red herring "can't write to disc" messages inside Kontakt, it did bring up NI Service Center from within Kontakt this time and let me authorize this library.

The strange thing is that this is the first time in slightly over a decade of using Macs (coming from a background of Windows, VMS, Unix/Linux, PDP, PrimOS, etc.), that I have EVER had to log in to the computer itself as root -- especially as my main account has admin privileges.

Any time I've hit a snag in the past that couldn't be solved by editing or flushing PLIST files, Repair Permissions, etc., I have been able to use Terminal to run "su", and then my session (as one would expect in a Unix based system) has root privileges and/or ownership until I kill the Terminal or logout of the "su" superuser session (not to be confused with "sudo" which only goes into superuser root mode for one command, or rather one Terminal window "sudo" login session).

Well, this was never really a Best Service or Galaxy Instruments problem to begin with, but I really appreciate that they got me through it. Probably this is similar to the issue that Sample Modeling's Trombone library faced after Kontakt and NI Service Center started getting more erratic a year or so ago.

Anyway, it's likely I won't be the only one to face this issue, so I thought I should write it up.

BTW the regular Galaxy II Steinway is darker, as expected. The Vintage D is really special, and a lot warmer and brighter sounding. It's a specific well-known piano as opposed to just being a different model (which it also is). It's been on a gazillion recordings, so is a familiar and well-loved sound.

[mhschmieder]

I have received my authorization codes for the Galaxy II Baby Grand (Bluethner) now, so hopefully can get that installed early enough tonight to compare it and report back on how it performs and sounds vs. the others.

Also, I ended up reverting to True Keys Italian for the piece I was originally going to switch to Galaxy Vintage D, but only because it's an extremely aggressive Cumbia tune where the piano benefited from the natural qualities of the Fazioli (unrelated to the relative merits of one sample library developer over another). Very staccato-ish, and has to cut through a lot of stuff (marimba, marimbula, full horn section, congas, trap kit, German button accordion, etc.).

[Tonio]

sorry for the OT Mark,
but what are you using for Marimba & marimbula?

thanks

[mhschmieder]

My preferred marimba library has switched a lot over the years, but currently nothing comes close to Spitfire's Frank Ricotti library for warmth, detail, and expressivity.

Orange Tree has a nice five octave marimba too, and I may find in certain contexts that it works the best. But right now, nothing touches the Spitfire library. Very flexible as well.

For marimbula, I'm stuck and have had to substitute bass sanza instead. This is because Vir2's World Impact has missing key mappings and uses mega files in Kontakt so I don't see a way to "find" the samples and hook them up to key mappings. They have NOT responded 2 weeks later.

Best Service's Forest Kingdom also has a marimbula. I had forgotten, as it's a comprehensive library so it may be low on detail, but I've used other instruments that surprised me by their depth. Eduardo Tarilonte does a great job with all of his libraries.

There are no other sources for marimbulas at the moment, and I also wish the udefeatable "spell checker" would stop changing it to marimba! I've never found a way to turn off that "feature" in any email program or forum, for the past few years, but used to be able to do so years ago.

[Tonio]

Thanks Mark, I'll check out Spitfire. Their Gallon idiophone(steel pans) seems interesting over8000 samples

I have an old Dave Samuels audio files CD from years ago I had forgotten about, I'll see if I can get anything playable from importing into Kontakt.
I don't have much experience in doing the mapping etc, so it may not be worth the effort.

Gregg @ Orangetree does have good audio demos for the marimba, but seems very dark in tone.

I didn't realize Eduardo Tarilonte did other work than what is on his site- though I haven't been there in a while. Forest Kingdom seems interesting enough, though not sure I can justify for a marimbula. Who knows , perhaps it can expand my horizons.

[mhschmieder]

Ah yes, I remember now, the Orange Tree marimba is darker than I like, just like their vibraphone. Very well programmed, and well sampled. I just happen to have different timbral preferences for both instruments.

Like I said though, I may hit projects later on where I want a different timbre than Spitfire's marimba and Soniccouture's vibraphone.

[mhschmieder]

I have continued the OT on sanzas and marimbas by tagging onto an older thread that is more focused on that topic, to avoid further diluting the Steinway topic.

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 11#p520611

It's funny how the marimbula was already talked about more than six years ago, as a highlight.

[mhschmieder]

Just finished trying the new Steinway B model in the latest Pianoteq 5.5 update, and will have to purchase it immediately and re-track with the missing notes from the Demo Mode taken care of.

Holy cow, this thing is magnificent and seems to address the issues I mentioned that had caused me to momentarily shift towards Galaxy Vintage D and sometimes VI Labs (though usually their Fazioli or Ravenscroft vs. their Steinway) for more realistic three-dimensional presence and dynamics.

I have only tried it so far on my cover of Chick Corea's Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy, which has a lot of parallel intervals of various sizes and can be quite a challenge for a virtual piano to render realistically. I didn't use any pedaling in this particular performance, but there's a wide dynamic range and most piano VI's have not captured my extreme dynamics in the outro until now.

Until I finish orchestrating my own version of this song and see how things blend, I don't know for certain whether I'll stick with the True Keys Fazioli or the new Pianoteq Model B, but likely I'll switch because Faziolis have quite a bit of heft in the lower register (regardless of dynamics) and don't tend to have the presence and warmth in the upper miss that a Steinway Baby Grand has, so the overall timbre of the Model B is more appropriate for this piece even though Chick Corea's playing style is very crisp and can benefit from a Fazcoli's character.

What I can say already though, is that I no longer experience the mid frequency muddle that previous versions (and/or models) of Pianoteq gave me on pieces such as this that have a lots of fast articulations of multiple exactly-timed notes -- whether or not with sustain pedal action.

I am finding that it is best to turn off the Delay, just as I always turn off the Reverb. But the new Equ3 effect is actually proving useful as a pre-EQ that is baked into the recording before mix time, as it helps take care of some resonance that otherwise would make layering decisions (I am adding flute, sax, trombone, and other instruments in my arrangement) more difficult unless pre-mixing the piano stem first.

I think I can trust the quality of the EQ in Pianoteq. I still don't like using its Reverb or Delay (or Compression --e except sometimes with Yamaha models in the context of rock songs).

[mhschmieder]

To follow up, after reviewing all of the tracks on my current jazz album that use piano (only four or five; the lead "keyboard" instrument is usually a marimba or vibraphone, one Rhodes piano, and even a few with arch-top guitar), the new Pianoteq Steinway "B" won out on all but two songs, with True Keys Italian staying put on the other two (which are both highly staccato-ish).

The Ravenscroft 275 got bumped to the curb on the one song that featured it. Steinway "B" from Pianoteq sounds more dynamic; all the VI Labs stuff sounds slightly compressed, but not as much so as most other sampled libraries. Bear in mind that I spent MANY hours tweaking mics etc.

This doesn't mean Pianoteq Steinway "B" is the "best"; it's just for this particular project it was what I had in my head all along but couldn't achieve with the Steinway "D" from Pianoteq or any Steinway sample libraries (including the new ones I bought).

I am reminded of Elton John's 70's sound, which Dave Polich pointed out and then I realized that was what I was connecting with. Probably also why my New Orleans Stride piece was just begging for this new Pianoteq model!

Really, what won me over, after hours of tweaking, listening, comparing, soloing, muting, etc., is that this Baby Grand is the best at sitting with a small horn section (flute, tenor sax, and sometimes trumpet, trombone, bass trombone, tuba, alto flute, clarinet -- but usually no more than three to four horns total on any particular piece).

It sends chills down my spine to hear this piano on my original arrangement of Chick Corea's "Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy" for acoustic piano, upright bass, drums, flute, tenor sax, and bass trombone.

[musicman691]

To follow up, after reviewing all of the tracks on my current jazz album that use piano (only four or five; the lead "keyboard" instrument is usually a marimba or vibraphone, one Rhodes piano, and even a few with arch-top guitar), the new Pianoteq Steinway "B" won out on all but two songs, with True Keys Italian staying put on the other two (which are both highly staccato-ish).

The Ravenscroft 275 got bumped to the curb on the one song that featured it. Steinway "B" from Pianoteq sounds more dynamic; all the VI Labs stuff sounds slightly compressed, but not as much so as most other sampled libraries. Bear in mind that I spent MANY hours tweaking mics etc.

This doesn't mean Pianoteq Steinway "B" is the "best"; it's just for this particular project it was what I had in my head all along but couldn't achieve with the Steinway "D" from Pianoteq or any Steinway sample libraries (including the new ones I bought).

I am reminded of Elton John's 70's sound, which Dave Polich pointed out and then I realized that was what I was connecting with. Probably also why my New Orleans Stride piece was just begging for this new Pianoteq model!

Really, what won me over, after hours of tweaking, listening, comparing, soloing, muting, etc., is that this Baby Grand is the best at sitting with a small horn section (flute, tenor sax, and sometimes trumpet, trombone, bass trombone, tuba, alto flute, clarinet -- but usually no more than three to four horns total on any particular piece).

It sends chills down my spine to hear this piano on my original arrangement of Chick Corea's "Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy" for acoustic piano, upright bass, drums, flute, tenor sax, and bass trombone.

Glad you got the piano sound you wanted. The B was always my favorite 'real' piano (non-vi) to play - never played one that didn't sound great no matter the room. Technically the B is not a 'baby' grand; at 6'11" it's right at the edge of what is generally called a concert grand. A baby grand is around 5 feet in length. See this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano

[Kurt Cowling]

I recently played the keyboard book for the musical Peter Pan. I needed a piano VI that would run easily on my laptop, mono out well and also have a responsive Celeste sound. After reading this thread I picked up Pianoteq. I used the Steinway D and the Celeste. The mix engineer said the piano sat great in the mix and the MD loved that the Celeste sounded so expressive. Thanks for bringing up the improvements in v5 or I may not have checked it out!