Is quantisation error dithered when recording a submix?

Discussion of Digital Performer use, optimization, tips and techniques on MacOS.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
This forum is for most discussion related to the use and optimization of Digital Performer [MacOS] and plug-ins as well as tips and techniques. It is NOT for troubleshooting technical issues, complaints, feature requests, or "Comparative DAW 101."
Post Reply
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Is quantisation error dithered when recording a submix?

Post by FMiguelez »

A current thread made me wonder about this, and now I'm REALLY curious about it...

- My session is set up at 24/44.1
- DP works at 32 bit floating point, so any audio and processed files get upconverted to that bit depth by DP
- Then I print a submix of my drums in real time via an audio track with input monitoring enabled (or via an aux track)

If the resulting printed file has a 24 bit depth, then what happened to the missing information from when it was 32 bits FP??? Is it simply discarded, introducing that level of quantisation error?

Or is it masked by the dither command and the resulting printed file is dithered automatically??? I would expect this to be the case...

This way, the apparent resolution of the file, with dither, would be closer to the original 32 bit signal than to the reduced 24 bit one (if this dither works anything like Waves'... they brag that with their L3s, the true resolution of a 16 bit audio bounce –down from 32 FP or 24– is actually 18 bits or 19 bits with their dither). Something about an extra 12 or 18 dB improvement of the dynamic range (6 dB for each extra bit, IIRC) than without it.

I would like to know this because... a) I'm a geek, b) I like to be technically-correct, and c) to be able to make INFORMED choices (perhaps I could, based on this info, decide if I want to record my projects with a 32 bit depth instead).

I wonder if recording an internal submix is a MAS function or a DP function? And, whatever it is, does it include dither when going from 32 FP to 24 or even 16 bits?

I would expect the quantisation errors to be more obvious going to 16 bits just like that... But I don't remember hearing anything particularly obvious when I used to work at 16 bits with my old G5 years ago.

MagicD?
MOTU?

:unicorn: :unicorn:

Invoking the unicorns, so we can finally have THE definitive answer once and for all? :)
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
EMRR
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:17 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Is quantisation error dithered when recording a submix?

Post by EMRR »

Bring it. :unicorn:
Doug Williams
Electromagnetic Radiation Recorders
The Martha Bassett Show broadcast mixer
Tape Op issue 73

DP 11.31
Studio M1 Max OS12.7.3
MOTU 16A and Monitor 8
M1 Pro MBP for remotes and editing
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Re: Is quantisation error dithered when recording a submix?

Post by FMiguelez »

[Crickets]
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
EMRR
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:17 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Is quantisation error dithered when recording a submix?

Post by EMRR »

yup
Doug Williams
Electromagnetic Radiation Recorders
The Martha Bassett Show broadcast mixer
Tape Op issue 73

DP 11.31
Studio M1 Max OS12.7.3
MOTU 16A and Monitor 8
M1 Pro MBP for remotes and editing
User avatar
Phil O
Posts: 7232
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Scituate, MA

Re: Is quantisation error dithered when recording a submix?

Post by Phil O »

FMiguelez wrote:I would like to know this because... a) I'm a geek, b) I like to be technically-correct, and c) to be able to make INFORMED choices (perhaps I could, based on this info, decide if I want to record my projects with a 32 bit depth instead).
I don't have any answers for you, but I currently track and mix with DP set to 32 bit FP. With the price of HDs nowadays, I really don't mind the file size and I don't need to ask those questions.

As for you being a geek, isn't everyone here?

Philippe
DP 11.23, 2020 M1 Mac Mini [9,1] (16 Gig RAM), Mac Pro 3GHz 8 core [6,1] (16 Gig RAM), OS 14.3.1/11.6.2, Lynx Aurora (n) 8tb, MOTU 8pre-es, MOTU M6, MOTU 828, Apogee Rosetta 800, UAD-2 Satellite, a truckload of outboard gear and plug-ins, and a partridge in a pear tree.
EMRR
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:17 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Is quantisation error dithered when recording a submix?

Post by EMRR »

another thread; survey of bit depth used.
Doug Williams
Electromagnetic Radiation Recorders
The Martha Bassett Show broadcast mixer
Tape Op issue 73

DP 11.31
Studio M1 Max OS12.7.3
MOTU 16A and Monitor 8
M1 Pro MBP for remotes and editing
Post Reply