Drum Programming, Transposition, etc.

[SMS]

I'm getting frustrated trying to find a good work flow for drum programming. I have Superior Drummer, BFD, and Slate VIs, as well as various MIDI gear. All great, lots of choices. The issue is if I want to try out different sources, they all have different mapping. OK, so I set up either a simple octave transpotion or custom map with the MIDI Transpose plug-in. I can then play the familiar (GM for me) keys and the plug transposes both on playback and entry. Marvelous! However, when editing, the MIDI events sound the actual note, not transposed.

Do we agree that the Transpose plug should also apply when clicking on notes in the editor (I use the regular MIDI editor, not the drum editor)?

I have the same issue with Trillian, as it, by default, sounds an octave lower than played. I'd rather enter the actual notes, because for one thing, it separates the notes when viewing multiple tracks in the MIDI editor. I know I can use the Transpose knob in Trillian, but again, every time I want to audition a different Bass sound I have to reset this. I can't find any kind of global setting in Trillian to change this....

Any suggestions for an easier way to be able to easily swap drum players and/or deal with these transposition issues?

Thanks in advance

Spence

[Tritonemusic]

I don't remember if there's a preference for this. For now, you could click on a note to select it (of course, you'll hear the wrong note), then hit Option-Spacebar and it will sound the Transposed note. Definitely not a fix, but it's all I can think of for now.

[mikehalloran]

I have the same issue with Trillian, as it, by default, sounds an octave lower than played.

like any double bass instrument, right?

[stubbsonic]

Yea, it would be nice if there was a preference that said:

"Render transpose plugin in realtime for MIDI edit/Audition mode".

On a related topic, I remember an old version of Finale (10 years ago) where, when editing a transposed part, it would sound the transposed pitch and not the ACTUAL pitch. So, for example, if it was a Bb trumpet part, and clicked on a C in that part, it would sound a C-- even though the pitch in real-life would be a Bb. I asked Finale's support about it, and they said that was just the way it worked, and basically told me to F off.

But back to your issue. I guess you could make copies of the track, and destructively apply the transposition while you are doing edits.

[SMS]

I have the same issue with Trillian, as it, by default, sounds an octave lower than played.

like any double bass instrument, right?

To me, those traditional transpositions are for notation/ease of reading. Sampled Tenor Sax doesn't sound a Major 9th lower than played in, does it? I suppose, in the case of Trillian, it's done to make it easier to get full range from a 25 or 49 key controller, and each Drum instrument designer maps things the way they think is best, but it would be nice if DP helped with this by having the MIDI editor play through the transpose plug.

Conclusion- there's not really any convenient way to easily audition different drum sound sources and still be able to edit....

I'd like to hear how others accomplish this...

[buzzsmith]

I must be missing something re: Trillian. I've been using this very nice sounding bass VI since it was known as Trilogy.

Unless I don't remember changing a default, it always sounds the note I play on my controller (which is not transposed).

IOW, if I play Middle C on the keyboard through Trillian, Middle C is what is sounded and recorded.


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[SMS]

Odd...

[David Polich]

Forget about using Transpose to get drumkit pieces in the places you prefer. You have to go into the drum VI edit and place kit pieces where you want them. Every drum VI allows you to program your own kits with drums placed where you want. Tedious? Yes. Worth the work? Yes.

I've always hated the GM drum map. Never made sense to me. I start by placing the hi tom on G2, mid tom on A2, and lo tom on B2. Hi to low, like a real kit (I'm right-handed). G#2 is where I put the
shank hat, instead of the foot pedal hat, which has always been a stupid place to put it. Hi crash on
C#3, ride cymbal On D#3, low crash on G3. Snare drag on D#1, just to the right of the main snare on D1. Who the hell needs a handclap next to the snare? Put the drag snare next to the main snare and then play trills with D1,D#1, and E1 and you can get really cool snare parts going.

Spend some time re-programming your own kits. You'll be really happy you did.

[monkey man]

I've still not used VIs for anything, let alone drums, but as awkward as the GM mapping is, I've stuck with it since the late '80s. One gets used to it in time.

Based on what I've read here, it should hopefully be a simple matter of selecting "GM Mapping" in whichever VIs I end up buying one day, assuming they all offer the option. At this point, I'm inclined to predict that I'll not bother with those that don't; the ability to easily compare kits across different VIs, I'd have thought, is essential.

[David Polich]

I've still not used VIs for anything, let alone drums, but as awkward as the GM mapping is, I've stuck with it since the late '80s. One gets used to it in time.

Based on what I've read here, it should hopefully be a simple matter of selecting "GM Mapping" in whichever VIs I end up buying one day, assuming they all offer the option. At this point, I'm inclined to predict that I'll not bother with those that don't; the ability to easily compare kits across different VIs, I'd have thought, is essential.

All drum VI's have drum kits that are mapped to
the GM standard by default. Thats why you
have to edit kits to put the kit pieces
where you want (or not, if you prefer
to stick to the GM standard)

Btw, the GM standard was developed originally
by Roland. The GM drum map is an
arbitrary drumkit piece assignment
put together by someone who obviously
wasnt a drummer.

[monkey man]

Correct weight, Dave!

From memory I think it was based on the MT-32 mapping, and because it was such a popular unit Roland (and subsequently the rest of the crowd) just went with it.

I agree that it's a crappy mapping and a bugger to play, but as I suggested, I'm used to it now and I love standards (and default settings!). It's 'cause of my penchant for such things (in the interests of repeatability mostly) that, from what you've just told me, the 230-odd pieces I've sitting waiting for development will be more-easily rendered as they date back to the late '80s and all employ the GM mapping.

Thank you, mate; it's great to know that all drum VIs provide this option at the click of a button. Ripper!

[crduval]

I liked the mapping that Kurzweil implemented in their synths. It had the kick and snare at an octave apart (with adjacent keys to the kick and snare were also mapped to the kick and snare), while hats, rides and cymbals were conveniently mapped to the right hand. It made it very easy with the left hand to play sophisticated double kick/snare drum patterns in real time. Toms were in the middle. I redid some of my non Kurz maps in this way, although I've gotten used to the less convenient GM map too by now.

[monkey man]

Yeah, whilst I only owned a PC2 module for a few days, I well remember that the congas were mapped to adjacent keys (mostly white ones?) which, in retrospect, should have made playing more intuitive.

Funny that one of the reasons (apart from financial ones) I sold the only Kurz unit I ever owned was that I expected to be able to employ the "trusty ol' GM mapping" and couldn't find a way to do so.

Ironic that those congas were the best-sounding I'd ever experienced in a ROMpler, and until recently the hunt has been on. Mind you, I've given up of late as I figured the Flying Hand stuff will more than cover these needs when the time eventually comes to take the VI-and-plug dive.

[bayswater]

The GM drum map is an
arbitrary drumkit piece assignment
put together by someone who obviously
wasnt a drummer.

Or a left-handed drummer? There's a drummer joke somewhere here.

[monkey man]

Yeah, if only we could find it, Stoivo. LOL