keeping two-mic's / two tracks in phase

[bayswater]

... or watch the video on Precision Delay. As Magic Dave says, the video shows how to solve phase alignment problems in an example with two tracks recorded with two microphones on the same guitar amplifier. Very similar to your situation.

It's at this link which shows videos in alphabetical order.

http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/video.html

[musicman691]

I recently acquired a new piece of gear. Someone posted a video in here about a month or so ago, of some guys in Nashville playing a jazz-standard with a small band with brass and vocal. Great playing. I noticed the vocalist was using a Reflexion Filter Pro, and they were getting a great sound from him. Considering that they were recording in a room not unlike where I do most of my recordings (when I'm not on location), I thought that was worthy of note.

I kept going back and listening to that again and again. Finally, I picked up the phone and called Sweetwater, and it was here in 3 days. It's too heavy for most mic stands, at least if you want to use it on a boom, which I do, so I also got a VERY heavy mic stand on wheels. I mean, this thing has counterweights and the whole affair weighs over 40 lbs. (with mic and Reflexion Filter Pro) Best stand I've ever seen, and it can handle a Neumann tube mic (M-149) in a shock mount, mounted on this Reflexion Filter Pro, and still reach across the floor. (its also huge, much bigger than it looks in the pictures)

Quite a set-up, but (hard to believe) I've had it for almost two weeks and have not tried it out yet. Been busy with life, no clients (semi-retired now), and my daughter (who is my test subject when I'm not doing anything else) has been preoccupied with gigs and b/f. Not to mention the constant storms. So... it may be a while before I can report on it, but I'm very interested in what it does. Basically, it's like putting your mic in a sound-proof booth, or maybe like putting it in the booth with the door open. Reflections are flying all around it, but it absorbs or deflects most of them. Just putting my head near it and singing into it sounds like I'm in a decent-quality studio. I may end up getting a second one for stereo recordings, or for recording two singers/instrumentalists at once. So, it may help with the very problem we're talking about. By minimizing cross-reflections between mics, it may enable me to focus on mere distance from the mics to the subject, which can be measured.

But I'm speculating. It'll be a while, but I'll definitely be using it on the next thing I record. The possibilities that suggest themselves are probably a lot more amazing than the reality of actually using it, but until I find out that it's useless, I'll be enjoying how great it seems in my dreams. Incidentally, I've heard from several sources now that competing products don't come close to this one. One source is a friend I trust; others are testimonials and reviews around the web.

Shoosh



(Photo by Gear4Presentation, which has a video review of the product.)

The picture is interesting. It looks like they changed the mount around so that the heavy curved part is on the opposite side of the mic stand from the rest of the system. Or did sE change the setup? I remember reading that someone figured out how to stabilize the original system like this to try and keep things from falling over. I think it might have been in SOS magazine.

[mikehalloran]

Here's the official video on setup and placement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=44&v=R4nCs3v-JT0

Note they place an emphasis on balance and they are clearly using a heavy duty Atlas stand.
http://www.atlassound.com/HeavyDuty-442

Stick around for the follow-up video where the presenter shows all four models including the one where "loades of science and stuff has gone into this". Actually, it's pretty good if you can take the singer (I'm not a fan).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTUBtkancr0

[Shooshie]

You can set up the Reflexion several ways; it's flexible if you use your imagination. I dropped it in upside down, leaving the space in front of the singer open and not blocked by stands and booms. That heavy stand can drop it in from like 7 feet, and it sure makes for less clutter. When not using it, I just raise it to the ceiling, and it's out of the way but ready to use. The filter itself is an imposing presence in any room if it's lower than 6 feet. Pushing it up to the ceiling kind of makes it disappear.

I like the idea of it hanging down to the singer; she'll have a tendency to look upward and sing more relaxed and open, but not be intimidated by a forest of gear directly in front of her. I look forward to actually trying it! That just hasn't been in the cards for us lately.

Weather is probably the main reason we haven't been working here, but not the only reason. We've had lightning & thunder, tornadoes and floods almost every night for the past few weeks. I doubt that many recording studios are working around here right now. I'm on a hill, so no flooding, but I've had my bags packed and ready to leave on short notice in case of tornado. The sirens have only gone off twice in our neighborhood, but every storm makes tornadoes, and we have to watch them till they pass (knowing all the time that someone else is getting hit). My gear is unplugged half the time, including my computer. I only leave our router plugged in; we need an active router to track storms with radar, via our iPads, and I've got a spare in case lightning fries this one. I'll just be glad when we can work normally again. Sadly, a growing number of people will never be returning to work. These have become the worst storms in Texas history.

I just heard an official statistic: enough rain in recent days to cover the entire state of Texas in 8 inches of water, over 35 trillion gallons.

Shooshie

[edit: changed 8 feet [of water] to 8 inches. I knew that, but my hands were thinking it just didn't feel like enough, so they typed feet]

[musicman691]

You can set up the Reflexion several ways; it's flexible if you use your imagination. I dropped it in upside down, leaving the space in front of the singer open and not blocked by stands and booms. That heavy stand can drop it in from like 7 feet, and it sure makes for less clutter. When not using it, I just raise it to the ceiling, and it's out of the way but ready to use. The filter itself is an imposing presence in any room if it's lower than 6 feet. Pushing it up to the ceiling kind of makes it disappear.

I like the idea of it hanging down to the singer; she'll have a tendency to look upward and sing more relaxed and open, but not be intimidated by a forest of gear directly in front of her. I look forward to actually trying it! That just hasn't been in the cards for us lately.

Weather is probably the main reason we haven't been working here, but not the only reason. We've had lightning & thunder, tornadoes and floods almost every night for the past few weeks. I doubt that many recording studios are working around here right now. I'm on a hill, so no flooding, but I've had my bags packed and ready to leave on short notice in case of tornado. The sirens have only gone off twice in our neighborhood, but every storm makes tornadoes, and we have to watch them till they pass (knowing all the time that someone else is getting hit). My gear is unplugged half the time, including my computer. I only leave our router plugged in; we need an active router to track storms with radar, via our iPads, and I've got a spare in case lightning fries this one. I'll just be glad when we can work normally again. Sadly, a growing number of people will never be returning to work. These have become the worst storms in Texas history.

I just heard an official statistic: enough rain in recent days to cover the entire state of Texas in 8 inches of water, over 35 trillion gallons.

Shooshie

Was worried how you're making out with all the rain and stuff. I know you're in Texas but don't know where but at least you're up relatively high. Hopefully if you need to bug out you have a vehicle with enough fording capability to get to a safe place.

I have friends that work down at Johnson Space Center and hope they're okay.

[buzzsmith]

I'm commenting so that I may find this easier tomorrow! I was literally just talking about this a few hours ago with a studio friend of mine about the better way to configure the hardware.

I have one, and it is a little "wonky".

Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stubbsonic]

Just to backtrack a little. There is a distinction to be made between getting a good stereo sound of a live recording-- M/S vs X/Y vs Boundary, etc etc. --- and using multiple mics to capture different aspects of the sound & room (even if not to get a stereo image. As an aside, I LOVE Mid-Side. I think it is the most clever and wonderful thing.

If I'm recording an instrument with a complex set of qualities, I might use multiple mics to pick up different parts of the direct sound and room. The problem is always that those mics interact and can screw up the EQ. Though you can slide the tracks and aligh to some degree, that can help with low end, but it can create other oddities. I sometimes will use a band-pass kind of approach to use the low-end from one mic/track, the mid from another, and the top from a third. Whether or not I do some panning to make this a wider affair is another step.

[otalgia-2000]

[snip]

Weather is probably the main reason we haven't been working here, but not the only reason. We've had lightning & thunder, tornadoes and floods almost every night for the past few weeks. I doubt that many recording studios are working around here right now. I'm on a hill, so no flooding, but I've had my bags packed and ready to leave on short notice in case of tornado. The sirens have only gone off twice in our neighborhood, but every storm makes tornadoes, and we have to watch them till they pass (knowing all the time that someone else is getting hit). My gear is unplugged half the time, including my computer. I only leave our router plugged in; we need an active router to track storms with radar, via our iPads, and I've got a spare in case lightning fries this one. I'll just be glad when we can work normally again. Sadly, a growing number of people will never be returning to work. These have become the worst storms in Texas history.

I just heard an official statistic: enough rain in recent days to cover the entire state of Texas in 8 inches of water, over 35 trillion gallons.

Shooshie

thanks all the more for contributing to this, considering all that you're contending with right now.

wishing you, family and neighbors safety and a quick stand-down from what i am sure is too much high-tension.

(...if only there was some way to ship all that water to cali...)

best
o-2k

[otalgia-2000]

... or watch the video on Precision Delay. As Magic Dave says, the video shows how to solve phase alignment problems in an example with two tracks recorded with two microphones on the same guitar amplifier. Very similar to your situation.

It's at this link which shows videos in alphabetical order.

http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/video.html

spot on, this is fantastic. thanks very much!

o-2k

[otalgia-2000]

Just to backtrack a little. There is a distinction to be made between getting a good stereo sound of a live recording-- M/S vs X/Y vs Boundary, etc etc. --- and using multiple mics to capture different aspects of the sound & room (even if not to get a stereo image. As an aside, I LOVE Mid-Side. I think it is the most clever and wonderful thing.

If I'm recording an instrument with a complex set of qualities, I might use multiple mics to pick up different parts of the direct sound and room. The problem is always that those mics interact and can screw up the EQ. Though you can slide the tracks and aligh to some degree, that can help with low end, but it can create other oddities. I sometimes will use a band-pass kind of approach to use the low-end from one mic/track, the mid from another, and the top from a third. Whether or not I do some panning to make this a wider affair is another step.

the second example you're describing is closer to what i had in mind originally.

by your comment, i am noting well that what might seem cool at first really can open up a rabbit hole best avoided from the start. it's kinda like that car with the fins: looks great! but it'll gobble gas like you can't believe.

i'd still experiment a bit on my own time to confirm this but i'm forming the impression that using two mics for the same source might be done more to get options for the one sound eventually to be chosen, rather than assumed to be used as a composite.

that said, i suppose there's always the chance that if by experimentation one happened upon a compositing placement that can reliably be repeated, then that could be worth keeping in the cookbook.

thanks to everyone for the conversation!

o-2k

[Shooshie]

(...if only there was some way to ship all that water to cali...)

About 16 million Texans are thinking the same thing right now. We'd like you to take it, water moccasins, fire ants, and all!

On a side note, I just realized why north Texas has no water moccasins, while south Texas is awash in them. They can't crawl back fast enough; the floods wash them down to the swamps of East Texas and Louisiana. [ok... enough side-tracking. Let's get back to multiple mics and phases issues!]

Shooshie

[bayswater]

(...if only there was some way to ship all that water to cali...)

About 16 million Texans are thinking the same thing right now. We'd like you to take it, water moccasins, fire ants, and all!

On a side note, I just realized why north Texas has no water moccasins, while south Texas is awash in them. They can't crawl back fast enough; the floods wash them down to the swamps of East Texas and Louisiana. [ok... enough side-tracking. Let's get back to multiple mics and phases issues!]

Shooshie

Fire ants, on the other hand, don't have that problem. They've just arrived here. Want them back?

[Shooshie]

This is a conversation that is dear to me. I'd say that this particular issue (phases, reflections, and general behavior of audio) is the reason I pursued sciences and became somewhat proficient in audio engineering, alongside my devotion to becoming a concert artist. I grew up in a house with a large front porch enclosed on two sides, with a solid board roof and a solid concrete floor (the porch, that is). Early on, i noticed that things sounded different out there. You could clap your hands and hear the reflections, like a super-ball made of air, bouncing back and forth for a good second or more. I would test the sound in every room I went in, if alone, and learned to map out the reflections in a room by whistling and clapping while walking around in it. That taught me to find the good places for microphones very quickly. If your ears can hear it, so can the mics.

About 15 years ago, I did a drawing in Adobe Illustrator in which I started with two "speaker" sources, near the corners of a long room, and drew concentric circles around each one. When a circle reached a wall, I folded it back on itself, just as sound would do. The complexities are pretty amazing, and this was the simplest of drawings. To imagine what's going on in the actual air, in a room, is beyond comprehension. And to think; we make living art out of that stuff, in real time!

[Killahurts]

... or watch the video on Precision Delay. As Magic Dave says, the video shows how to solve phase alignment problems in an example with two tracks recorded with two microphones on the same guitar amplifier. Very similar to your situation.

It's at this link which shows videos in alphabetical order.

http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/video.html

The secret weapon for multi-mic recording. So glad they added this to DP. I used to use a rather expensive little box made by Little Labs to do this, the IBP. Now they even have the plugin for it.. But Precision Delay is an order higher.. MOTU really did it right!

[stubbsonic]

I've recently heard very cool stories about blind people who from a young age used clicking sounds to help them "see" the space they are in.