Best moment to convert a 24/44.1 master to 16/48...

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FMiguelez
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Best moment to convert a 24/44.1 master to 16/48...

Post by FMiguelez »

Hello.

I'm pseudo-mastering a few tracks for a project. I created a special chunk where I will master all the music. I imported all my final unmastered mixes here. It's all in a continuous time-line, one piece after the other, and the master fader contains the automation for each track's plugins.

These DP session, and the final mixes are all in 24-44.1 format.

But now, I also need to turn in masters in 16-48 KHz format. What is the BEST way to do this?

I thought DP would allow me to choose the 48 KHz sampling rate in the BTD dialog box, but nope.
Also, the Sounbites window doesn't give me any sampling rate options in the Export dialog box.
Only the CONVERT command apparently allows me to convert, by duplicating, a file into another sample rate. Is this so?

What I don't have clear is WHEN to do the sample rate conversion... Should I first BTD to a BWAV 16 bit (dithered), and then do the conversion FROM THAT file? Or should I enable automatic conversions and change the session's sampling rate to 48, and to let DP convert the final mixes to 48, and then bounce the masters from here at this new SR?

I'm confused... Also, I know dithering is the last thing that is supposed to be done in the chain when lowering the bit rate (as is the case here), but does this include a sample rate conversion? IOW, should the dithering be done before or after the SR conversion?

Thank you for any insight.
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Re: Best moment to convert a 24/44.1 master to 16/48...

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Not at DP but how's this?

I'd try bouncing all the audio in THE CURRENT FORMAT.

Then I'd start a new project with a sample and bit rate desired, set the import audio to convert when importing, then drag all the bounced files to the new project soundbite window and let DP do it's thing.

Alternately you might use another program like DSP Quattro to do the conversions.
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Re: Best moment to convert a 24/44.1 master to 16/48...

Post by FMiguelez »

Thanks for answering, Mike.

That sounds like a good idea.

So, if I understood correctly, this new project you suggest would be set to 16/48. Whatever files DP creates when it converts the bit depth (from 24 to 16) and the sample rate (44.1 to 48) of my previously mastered files, THOSE are the ones that I would drag into iTunes and call "Masters Client", without further bouncing or processing.

Did I get it right? If so, I wonder what dithering algorithm DP would use for the bit depth conversion.
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Re: Best moment to convert a 24/44.1 master to 16/48...

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I'd certainly try that. Not sure about the dithering aspect. FWIW, when DP creates an MP3 it's often way bigger than DSP Quattro processing the same file. Also QT (QuickTime) Amateur (freeware) does batch conversions but I'm not sure about the bit rate options.
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Re: Best moment to convert a 24/44.1 master to 16/48...

Post by supersonic »

I use the original format until the very end. For the final conversion I use sample manager. It uses Izotope algorithms that seem to work well. Why would you want to go from 16 to 24 bit? I don't see any ups and one down - higher file size.


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Re: Best moment to convert a 24/44.1 master to 16/48...

Post by FMiguelez »

supersonic wrote:I use the original format until the very end. For the final conversion I use sample manager. It uses Izotope algorithms that seem to work well. Why would you want to go from 16 to 24 bit? I don't see any ups and one down - higher file size.


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I'm actually going from 24-44.1 to 16-48. I know it's weird, but they insist in this particular format.

The next badge of pieces I'll do them with a 48 KHz session, from the beginning, so I avoid this madness... :)
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Re: Best moment to convert a 24/44.1 master to 16/48...

Post by mikehalloran »

Not madness, just a minor inconvenience nowadays.

You can convert the audio before processing and mixing or do it on the finished master. It depends where you are in the project.
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Re: Best moment to convert a 24/44.1 master to 16/48...

Post by FMiguelez »

It worked fine, but there´s a little issue I´d like to resolve...

What I did was BTD the normal masters and then BTD another version with the dithered 16 bit 44.1 KHz.
I did as MLC suggested, with a new project with the new sample rate, and let DP do its automatic conversion thing.

BUT, after the conversions, I think the tracks are getting a little extra gain from somewhere I don´t know about... (I had put a limiter with a 0.5 dB ceiling in the original files, BTW). It´s not the faders and not the master fader.... I can see some louder parts clipping my Tascam mixer and just 0.1 dB short of clipping DP´s meters as well. In DP these tracks appear a little louder (something like 0.3 dB)... WHY???

This happens also sometimes when I play commercial records... I think my mixer is adding something like 0.2 dB to these tracks.

Could these fractions of extra volume be due to the dithering and-or sample rate conversion? So I´m seeing 2 things... DP not respecting my previous ceiling setting (converted tracks a tad louder), and a little more gain from somewhere else in my Tascam mixer (I checked it and everything´s at unity).

Thanks!
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Re: Best moment to convert a 24/44.1 master to 16/48...

Post by Killahurts »

FMiguelez wrote:BUT, after the conversions, I think the tracks are getting a little extra gain from somewhere I don´t know about... (I had put a limiter with a 0.5 dB ceiling in the original files, BTW). It´s not the faders and not the master fader.... I can see some louder parts clipping my Tascam mixer and just 0.1 dB short of clipping DP´s meters as well. In DP these tracks appear a little louder (something like 0.3 dB)... WHY???
Did you take in account the dither you added? Some dithers are louder than others..

Here is how I would handle the original post, if I only had DP: I would add the dither and then reduce to 16 bits. I would take the resulting file and upsample to 48k (using the highest quality setting, of course), using no dither.

The way I would actually do this for myself would be to apply either Ozone or Sonnox dither, or UV22, to go to 16 bits. Then, I'd export that file to Barbabatch where I would upsample. It's a step up from DP's sample rate conversion, but not a large one- DP's is among the best SRC in the business!
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Re: Best moment to convert a 24/44.1 master to 16/48...

Post by FMiguelez »

Killahurts wrote:
Did you take in account the dither you added? Some dithers are louder than others..
Yes. I left a -0.5 dB ceiling for the dither headroom, but perhaps it wasn't enough? How loud is that freaking thing anyway? I thought it was supposed to be below the noise floor and only in certain frequencies. The one I'm using is the ol' Waves L2 limiter, with its settings to normal and dither one.

What is worse, is that its almost as if the limiter was not wall-limiting, because ALL pieces are with the same headroom and dither settings, yet some clip the Tascam and some don't... Isn't that strange?
Killahurts wrote:Here is how I would handle the original post, if I only had DP: I would add the dither and then reduce to 16 bits. I would take the resulting file and upsample to 48k (using the highest quality setting, of course), using no dither.
That's exactly what I did :)

The only thing is that, AFAIK, DP doesn't have a quality setting for this anymore. I'm almost positive they even said something like "DP now always uses the highest quality setting". Can anyone please confirm that?
Killahurts wrote:The way I would actually do this for myself would be to apply either Ozone or Sonnox dither, or UV22, to go to 16 bits. Then, I'd export that file to Barbabatch where I would upsample. It's a step up from DP's sample rate conversion, but not a large one- DP's is among the best SRC in the business!
I heard that. I couldn't notice much difference between the original and the converted music. It really works. Someone once uploaded some kind of quality comparison graph, and DP outshined most, if not all, the other DAWs.

I just need to figure out what's going on with my tracks now... It wouldn't be normal to leave more than -0.5 dB as a ceiling for headroom, correct? I thought I was being generous, normally setting it at- 0.3
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Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
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