Virtual Instruments - how many?

[musicman691]

Picky, picky, picky!



Shooshie

Yeah, I thought about what I wrote sounding a bit pretentious and/or snide. It's still true though I think, and I'm still curious if you have any non-public info about dp9

I didn't think what you wrote was pretentious or snide. It's just that if anyone posts anything even slightly critical about DP you can expect get the reaction you did. Or worse.

And as far as getting non-public info about DP9 you'll not get anything serious from anyone here. Maybe a round of derision for asking the question but that's about it.

[Shooshie]

Picky, picky, picky!



Shooshie

Yeah, I thought about what I wrote sounding a bit pretentious and/or snide. It's still true though I think, and I'm still curious if you have any non-public info about dp9

I didn't think what you wrote was pretentious or snide. It's just that if anyone posts anything even slightly critical about DP you can expect get the reaction you did. Or worse.

And as far as getting non-public info about DP9 you'll not get anything serious from anyone here. Maybe a round of derision for asking the question but that's about it.

Robert: I don't have any information you don't already know. Instincts tell me that MOTU always puts enough in to be competitive, yet tries not to spread their business footprint too far afield. MOTU makes audio hardware, a handful of quality virtual instruments, a great sampler, and one of the three or four truly world-class DAWs. Their reputation is not on the line to produce the world's finest synth VI, so they won't do that, but they WILL be competitive.

MX4 had lost market value, so it makes more sense to bundle it with DP, now. That will bring it many years more productive life instead of letting it wither away in unsold boxes. I think that Mach 5 is probably in a slow decline, and will eventually also be bundled. Kontakt seems to have won the war in hosting 3rd party VIs, and people in general seem less interested in a true sampler than they were 10 years ago. It makes more sense for MOTU to bundle other assets where they will be used and bring value to the product line and the company. I wish they would revive Unisyn and do likewise. But my speculations don't mean much, for now. MOTU is a little like Apple with their new products and upgrades:

• 1) they announce a certain amount if it and deliver what they announce
  2) there are always some unannounced features that, in hindsight, might have been predictable
  3) they usually surprise everyone with at least one thing, sometimes more, that nobody could have seen coming.

Ok, and now for Jack:
Let's put the cards on the table: I'm not gunning for you, and you need not gun for me or anyone else here. The attitude wears thin. We're all as up front as we can be. If anyone here had any knowledge that you guys don't have, it would ONLY reach them by way of a signed NDA. Who's going to break an NDA and risk having to get all lawyered-up, just to tell you stuff you're going to find out soon anyway?

As for your feeling that you will be slammed for criticizing DP, well, this IS a DP forum, and personally I happen to like using it. I've got no time to sit around chewing the poisoned fat. This software and this company opened a lot of professional doors for me, and they continue to produce a high-level product line. What beef could I possibly have with them? Sure, there are things I'd like to see in DP. Mostly just personal preferences. A certain amount of that kind of talk is good. We all — MOTU included — can read the tea leaves here. But... when someone criticizes MOTU or DP in a way that I think is short-sighted or unfair, I respond. Bad rumors are best nipped in the bud.

Getting down to the facts: I've been sensing an edge from you for a while. It's just that I keep feeling it over and over, so let's just get it out in the breeze. Have I offended you in some way? Are you upset with MOTU? DP? MOTUNation?

Speak freely; it's just the internet. I couldn't bite you if I wanted to, and frankly I don't.

Shoosh

[musicman691]

Ok, and now for Jack:
Let's put the cards on the table: I'm not gunning for you, and you need not gun for me or anyone else here. The attitude wears thin. We're all as up front as we can be. If anyone here had any knowledge that you guys don't have, it would ONLY reach them by way of a signed NDA. Who's going to break an NDA and risk having to get all lawyered-up, just to tell you stuff you're going to find out soon anyway?

As for your feeling that you will be slammed for criticizing DP, well, this IS a DP forum, and personally I happen to like using it. I've got no time to sit around chewing the poisoned fat. This software and this company opened a lot of professional doors for me, and they continue to produce a high-level product line. What beef could I possibly have with them? Sure, there are things I'd like to see in DP. Mostly just personal preferences. A certain amount of that kind of talk is good. We all — MOTU included — can read the tea leaves here. But... when someone criticizes MOTU or DP in a way that I think is short-sighted or unfair, I respond. Bad rumors are best nipped in the bud.

Getting down to the facts: I've been sensing an edge from you for a while. It's just that I keep feeling it over and over, so let's just get it out in the breeze. Have I offended you in some way? Are you upset with MOTU? DP? MOTUNation?

Speak freely; it's just the internet. I couldn't bite you if I wanted to, and frankly I don't.

Shoosh

There may be an edge from me but if what I wrote has given you that feeling then I don't know what to say. Sure there's been a couple of times where I've called out the way things are done in DP as being difficult at best and have gotten words back from you and others that essentially say 'well that's the way it's been, it works for us so why should it change?' Those words have made me feel that my even asking about such and such a subject was less than welcome. To tell the truth I've seen this from you in response to others over the years as well as to me upon my return here; this was the one thing I was hoping to not get into again.

Neither has MOTU nor DP upset me. At the same time if I feel that if there's things that could be improved or commented on I should be able to do so as long as I keep it civil which I have. Nothing I have written has been shortsighted or unfair but honest criticism. And if that offends then what can I say?

Since you seem to want to get it out in the open would you care to show me where I came across as having an edge? If you'd rather not I'd be more than happy to discuss this via email or PM.

PS: If what I write here in the way of criticism offends then I suggest you take a look at what gets posted over in the DUC.

[Shooshie]

Jack, I take your comments seriously. You're certainly not the first to tell me I'm quick to jump on an accusation. So, I try not to. Still, I can't please everyone, but I try to stay out of slam-fests. We're all friendly, arrogant, opinionated egotists here, and we all know it, so it's laissez faire.

I don't want to be creating an uncomfortable atmosphere. It's not the criticism or complaining that usually bothers me, but the idea that something I'm doing is making you guys uncomfortable. So when something DOES bother me, it's best to air it right away rather than to sit steaming about it, opening doors to gossip and all that stuff. Funny how things work out when you confront them head-on. I expect no less from anyone else, but would hope that people have their thresholds set pretty high before entering this place.

I'm here to help with answers. In the process I make friends and end up making jokes that not everyone gets. When a comment seems misdirected, I try to help with context. Sometimes it takes a strong will to get the point across, but when everyone is piling onto a DP slam-fest, our answers get mixed with rumors, then people don't know what to believe. On the average, the info here is pretty honest & accurate. The biggest criticisms are usually that DP isn't Logic, Cubase, or Pro Tools. To those frames of mind, I say learn DP. If you know its ways, it generally works. When there's a real DP problem, we band together and MOTU usually hears us.

My advice to anyone who has a problem: show us. Tell it, post screenshots, videos, system info, and steps to make it fail — whatever it takes to get the point across to folks like me who often aren't experiencing the same problem. You won't face a gauntlet if you show a sincere effort to educate us. But "this sucks, because in Logic you do x-y-z, and DP is behind the times" will never get much traction here. At the end of the day, most of us get our work done and feel good about DP.

Shoosh

[MIDI Life Crisis]

...if anyone posts anything even slightly critical about DP you can expect get the reaction you did. Or worse.

Unfounded crits, yes, the poster will get flamed. But there are a lot of critical posts on MOTUNation that get intelligent responses when they are warranted.

Yeah, it's basically a site for users of DP, so we tend to like the app. If it comes across as being overly reactive or defensive, then it could be that the crit is either undeserved or comes from a place of - how do I put this delicately? - unknowing.

Personally, I tend to fly off the handle when DP misbehaves and more often than not, either I find the solution within hours or someone (often Shooshie) will provide guidance on the error of my ways. And frankly, sometimes it is a bug in DP. They are there and that is no secret. They are in every program. Read my lips: EVERY PROGRAM HAS BUGS. EVERY ONE!

As I like to say:

I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong; unfortunately, I'm usually the last to know.

[cuttime]

PS: If what I write here in the way of criticism offends then I suggest you take a look at what gets posted over in the DUC.

Digidesign User Conference. It took more than a few googlings to figure that one out. I always thought that GearSlutz was the standard for hotheaded flaming. This place is so genteel that there should be a dress code. Might I suggest top hats and spats?

[Shooshie]

This place is so genteel that there should be a dress code. Might I suggest top hats and spats?

What? You're not wearing them? Doris? Where's our dress code sign?

[musicman691]

Jack, I take your comments seriously. You're certainly not the first to tell me I'm quick to jump on an accusation. So, I try not to. Still, I can't please everyone, but I try to stay out of slam-fests. We're all friendly, arrogant, opinionated egotists here, and we all know it, so it's laissez faire.

I don't want to be creating an uncomfortable atmosphere. It's not the criticism or complaining that usually bothers me, but the idea that something I'm doing is making you guys uncomfortable. So when something DOES bother me, it's best to air it right away rather than to sit steaming about it, opening doors to gossip and all that stuff. Funny how things work out when you confront them head-on. I expect no less from anyone else, but would hope that people have their thresholds set pretty high before entering this place.

I'm here to help with answers. In the process I make friends and end up making jokes that not everyone gets. When a comment seems misdirected, I try to help with context. Sometimes it takes a strong will to get the point across, but when everyone is piling onto a DP slam-fest, our answers get mixed with rumors, then people don't know what to believe. On the average, the info here is pretty honest & accurate. The biggest criticisms are usually that DP isn't Logic, Cubase, or Pro Tools. To those frames of mind, I say learn DP. If you know its ways, it generally works. When there's a real DP problem, we band together and MOTU usually hears us.

My advice to anyone who has a problem: show us. Tell it, post screenshots, videos, system info, and steps to make it fail — whatever it takes to get the point across to folks like me who often aren't experiencing the same problem. You won't face a gauntlet if you show a sincere effort to educate us. But "this sucks, because in Logic you do x-y-z, and DP is behind the times" will never get much traction here. At the end of the day, most of us get our work done and feel good about DP.

Shoosh

Thank you for your reasoned post.
You mention that 'such and such sucks and DP is behind the times' doesn't get much traction here and that most of the posters here get work done and feel good about DP. That may be true but to me it also makes it seem like the community here isn't open to criticism or to suggestions that would make DP a more logical program to use.
I try and talk-up DP over on the DUC but at the same time I feel I should be able to point out things I feel could be improved. If that offends some then what can I say?

[musicman691]

...if anyone posts anything even slightly critical about DP you can expect get the reaction you did. Or worse.

Unfounded crits, yes, the poster will get flamed. But there are a lot of critical posts on MOTUNation that get intelligent responses when they are warranted.

Yeah, it's basically a site for users of DP, so we tend to like the app. If it comes across as being overly reactive or defensive, then it could be that the crit is either undeserved or comes from a place of - how do I put this delicately? - unknowing.

Personally, I tend to fly off the handle when DP misbehaves and more often than not, either I find the solution within hours or someone (often Shooshie) will provide guidance on the error of my ways. And frankly, sometimes it is a bug in DP. They are there and that is no secret. They are in every program. Read my lips: EVERY PROGRAM HAS BUGS. EVERY ONE!

As I like to say:

I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong; unfortunately, I'm usually the last to know.

For me it's not so much a matter of knowing or unknowing it's a matter of sometimes the program getting in the way and having to use 'work-arounds' on a regular basis ain't my cup of tea. I'm not talking about bugs here. I knew from the past DP has it's oddities compared to other daws and had hoped those were in the past. Most of the time I can figure them out and yes, there are times it's operator error but that's because there are times certain functions and their use are poorly documented in the manual.

[musicman691]

PS: If what I write here in the way of criticism offends then I suggest you take a look at what gets posted over in the DUC.

Digidesign User Conference. It took more than a few googlings to figure that one out. I always thought that GearSlutz was the standard for hotheaded flaming. This place is so genteel that there should be a dress code. Might I suggest top hats and spats?

A lot of what you're seeing right now on the DUC is because of the debacle that is ProTools 12 and the support plan roll out. Also while there are a scant few that are overly protective of Avid and PT you'll find that the majority are not afraid to say the emperor doesn't have any clothes on.

[monkey man]

It's just that if anyone posts anything even slightly critical about DP you can expect get the reaction you did. Or worse.

Mate, this is just plain unfair. It's just not that sort of forum. Really. I know you've been here on and off over the years, and, trying to see it from your point of view, I can only surmise that your description is borne out of... your experience. Fortunately, that isn't the norm. Unfortunately for you, it might well have been. If this is the case, on behalf of everyone here, I'm truly sorry.

Please, if you're able, try to wipe the slate clean and postpone your reassessment for now.

And as far as getting non-public info about DP9 you'll not get anything serious from anyone here. Maybe a round of derision for asking the question but that's about it.

No derision here. In fact, I've just deleted a paragraph I posted to disprove the efficacy of your hyperbolic assertion. So I suppose you're right. But wait...

The ONLY REASON I deleted the momentous (yes, for many it will be) news about DP9, is that when I stated at the end of it that I'd already broken a promise by posting it, and that my word is and has always been my bond, I couldn't bear to submit it. So you see, even sans NDA-imposed limits, there's an integrity here on the forum that, whilst semi-rare on the 'net, is nevertheless maintained by my esteemed colleagues.

This fact further serves to illustrate why we might appear to you to be "touchy" or over-sensitive. The explanation's simple. We, collectively and individually, have a conscience.

I hope you don't think I'm patronising you, Jack; I'm not. At least, that's not my intention. For most here, I've been preaching to the choir, but knowing you felt this way doesn't sit well with me and I therefore felt it necessary, to satisfy my conscience at least, to reiterate the facts about our demeanour in this forum as I see them. Take care, mate.
Nicky

Right back at ya, bro'.

[Robert Randolph]

It's just that if anyone posts anything even slightly critical about DP you can expect get the reaction you did. Or worse.

Mate, this is just plain unfair. It's just not that sort of forum. Really. I know you've been here on and off over the years, and, trying to see it from your point of view, I can only surmise that your description is borne out of... your experience. Fortunately, that isn't the norm. Unfortunately for you, it might well have been. If this is the case, on behalf of everyone here, I'm truly sorry.

To be fair, I used to agree with musicman1961, and if you try to talk about motunation on most any other forum, the general consensus also tends to agree. It's a running joke on a few forums I visit (GS, vi-control, tapeop, kvr) that DP is great.. just don't visit motunation.

Right now, I quite enjoy motunation, but there have been a lot of rough spots in the past where the overall tone was quite unfriendly to newcomers or people that were rightfully critical of DP. It's been a lot better in the last year, but for some the lingering memories still remain.

edit: It was difficult to write this post without sounding like I'm trying to deride members of the forum or the forum's usefulness. Currently motunation is great, but there are many, many people who do not feel that way based on past experiences (including myself until recently).

edit 2: I just want to be double-extra clear that in the last ~1 year, this has been one of the best DAW forums out there.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

For me it's not so much a matter of knowing or unknowing it's a matter of sometimes the program getting in the way and having to use 'work-arounds' on a regular basis ain't my cup of tea.

I certainly can't argue with that. My biggest issue with DP isn't DP itself, per se, but with how "intolerant" it is with errors from plugs, bad headers in sound files, and even the OS. Often enough, this results in (at best) instant crashes and (at worst) damaged project files that are unrecoverable. Yes, THAT is clearly intolerable for the users and has bit many (if not most) in the butt more than once.

Hitting cmd-s has become my mantra and redundant backups essential on TimeMachine (and manually for certain critical projects - aren't they all?). These posts are all over this site and have been since DP5, at least.

Shall I go on? DP is supposed to phone home with a crash report every time it hits the wall, but as of DP 8.04 or so, it has not only not done that, but will crash for no apparent reason without warning and then NOT phone home or even generate a report in the OS that it's crashed. Again, completely unacceptable.

So why am I still here? I can come up with a list of probably 100 features that make my work so much easier than in any other DAW I am aware of. And for the most part, once I've tweaked my system to DP's liking, it's pretty stable. The crashes I get now are really random (how frustrating it that!) Still, I have projects with multiple sequences in a single project, v-racks, great (arguably) MIDI editing, consolidated windows, editable color schemes to help keep better track of things visually, superb audio editing tools, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Contrary to what one might think at this point, I'm no DP or MOTU "fanboy" no more than I'm a fan of Apple or computers in general. I'm a composer/sound designer making a living and whatever tool(s) do that best are in my toolbox. I do not resonate with PT or the other DAWs. I can apply all this to Finale as well. I truly detest Sibelius and tried it many times (even purchased and then sold it after a year of trying it). Finale is buggier than ever, yet it still is better with all it's bugs than Sibelius is if it had no bugs.

For me it's kind of like the choice between three cars:

Car #1: 80% reliable, starts up every time and gets you from point A to point B as long as you stay on a paved road. Not fun to drive at all and only one occupant (sequence) at a time. That's pretty much how I view PT.

Car #2: 80% reliable, also starts up every time and also gets you from A to B on paved roads, but not just "not fun" to drive but plain old boring and still, only one occupant. Think: Cubase, Logic, etc.

Car #3: Still about 80% reliable and does the A to B thing, but also goes off road, up mountains, under water, and pretty much any planet you can imagine. Not only that but you can take other passengers (sequences) along and it's fun to drive.

All three cars will get flats, need oil, get recalls, and will have to be upgraded at prices that ofter seem like dealership estimates instead of your friend the mechanic doing the job for the cost of parts. So I ask you, which car would you choose?

[mikehalloran]

?..DP is supposed to phone home with a crash report every time it hits the wall, but as of DP 8.04 or so, it has not only not done that, but will crash for no apparent reason without warning and then NOT phone home or even generate a report in the OS that it's crashed. Again, completely unacceptable

Maybe, maybe not.

There is a setting in Yosemite that can prevent 3rd party apps from sending crash reports. It can be turned off and on.

You encounter the screen while setting Yosemite preferences during setup -- I came across it while doing a fresh install last night. I'll look today to see where Apple hides it.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Thanks. MOTU should let us know!