Virtual Instruments - how many?

Discussion of Digital Performer use, optimization, tips and techniques on MacOS.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
This forum is for most discussion related to the use and optimization of Digital Performer [MacOS] and plug-ins as well as tips and techniques. It is NOT for troubleshooting technical issues, complaints, feature requests, or "Comparative DAW 101."
User avatar
iGirl
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:53 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Joaquin Valley California

Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by iGirl »

I can't quite figure out how many virtual instruments are included with DP8. It looks like only 5 - and they are all (only) synthy.

I started out in electronic music/recording before the dawn of personal computers/MIDI and learned it all, along the way I moved up from an Apple IIe w/MIDI card to Macs w/Performer 1.0 when it first came out (MIDI sequencing only) up through about Digital Performer V5 before life got in the way and I stopped recording.

Now, I'm looking at getting back into it and am looking at various options all the way from the bundled free software (Cubase) that comes with audio interfaces - to Garageband - to a full DAW like DP or Logic - both of which IMO are likely to be 1 million times overkill and more complex than I need or want. I don't really have a ton of time to invest learning extremely complicated software. Plug, play, record would be perfect. All I need is simple.

To that end, Garageband seems like it might have every bit as many VI offerings as DP. While I've never used VI before, it seems like a great way to not have to buy tons of modules. I'm just a bit undecided. :banghead: Can all of them record the VI to an actual AUDIO track (for exporting multi-track audio)? Anyway, a huge selection of useful VI (realistic acoustic instruments) would tip the scale for me.

This is now my hobby years of recording and I'm not looking to build a system to expand and evolve for decades to come. I have a top end 27" iMac so CPU shouldn't be any issue.
Started using Performer when it was version 1.0 !
User avatar
Rick Cornish
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:07 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Ely, MN USA
Contact:

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by Rick Cornish »

For some, the basic VIs included with DP may do the job. Most third-party VIs can be used "out of the box" by just using presets without having to go way under the hood, though I don't know anyone who doesn't tweak the heck out of their sounds, even if starting from a preset. Again, it just depends what you want to do.

A warning though, acquiring more and more VIs can become an obsession. :mrgreen:
Rick Cornish

DP 11 on M2 Mac Studio (64mB mem. + 2tB int. SSD + two 2tB ext. SSDs, and Mac OS Sonoma). VIs from MOTU, Spectrasonics, NI, UVI, 8dio, Soniccouture, East West, Spitfire, Heavyocity, Vir2, and more; plus Waves 14, Brainworx, iZotope, Wavesfactory, Oeksound, Final Mix, JST, SPL, PSP, UVI, Valhalla DSP, and other FX plugs, Roland A-88, Apogee Quartet, iCON Platform Nano, Genelec 1032a and Westlake BBSM4 monitors, Gibson HR Fusion III. rickcornish.net
musicman691

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by musicman691 »

iGirl wrote:I can't quite figure out how many virtual instruments are included with DP8. It looks like only 5 - and they are all (only) synthy.

I started out in electronic music/recording before the dawn of personal computers/MIDI and learned it all, along the way I moved up from an Apple IIe w/MIDI card to Macs w/Performer 1.0 when it first came out (MIDI sequencing only) up through about Digital Performer V5 before life got in the way and I stopped recording.

Now, I'm looking at getting back into it and am looking at various options all the way from the bundled free software (Cubase) that comes with audio interfaces - to Garageband - to a full DAW like DP or Logic - both of which IMO are likely to be 1 million times overkill and more complex than I need or want. I don't really have a ton of time to invest learning extremely complicated software. Plug, play, record would be perfect. All I need is simple.

To that end, Garageband seems like it might have every bit as many VI offerings as DP. While I've never used VI before, it seems like a great way to not have to buy tons of modules. I'm just a bit undecided. :banghead: Can all of them record the VI to an actual AUDIO track (for exporting multi-track audio)? Anyway, a huge selection of useful VI (realistic acoustic instruments) would tip the scale for me.

This is now my hobby years of recording and I'm not looking to build a system to expand and evolve for decades to come. I have a top end 27" iMac so CPU shouldn't be any issue.
No music software of any real use is plug and play. You're going to have to put in the time to learn anything you buy. As far as free software that comes with interfaces in almost all cases that software is severely limited in what it can do. You're not going to get a full Cubase with any interface. AFAIK the only full software that comes with an interface is ProTools and believe me as a user of said program, it's not the easiest thing to learn. You'd even have to spend time learning Garageband.

As far as rendering vi's to audio any good daw will do that; they just vary in how they do that. One way is track freeze, another is bounce to disk, another is to record the vi to an audio track in real time as it's being triggered by the recorded MIDI data. Or you could play the vi in real time and record it that way. I have had issues with non-sample based vi's in faster than realtime work (sometimes the sound isn't just right).

As to realistic acoustic instrument vi's it depends on what you're looking for in terms of instruments. For orchestral stuff there's East West Symphonic Orchestra or their Hollywood Orchestra libraries that use their Play engine, there's tons of stuff for NI Kontakt with some killer guitar libraries. For acoustic drums there's BFD3 and Superior Drummer. Note that I've not tried MOTU's Mach Five.

You can get serviceable sounds from included vi's in most any daw but for myself I find them wanting after a while. There's no one daw or program that will cover all the types of sounds you'll want to use. There is a fully functioning 30 day trial of DP8 - you could download that and give it a shot but be aware that a LOT of things have changed since DP5. There's also a fully functioning 30 day trial of PT but you'd need an iLok2 for that. And that brings up something you may not have in your realm of knowledge - iLok hardware key copy protection; thankfully DP doesn't use one but a lot of vi's do.
musicman691

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by musicman691 »

Rick Cornish wrote:For some, the basic VIs included with DP may do the job. Most third-party VIs can be used "out of the box" by just using presets without having to go way under the hood, though I don't know anyone who doesn't tweak the heck out of their sounds, even if starting from a preset. Again, it just depends what you want to do.

A warning though, acquiring more and more VIs can become an obsession. :mrgreen:
Yup. It's the software version of G.A.S.
And if they're sample based then more hard drive space is needed :)
User avatar
stubbsonic
Posts: 4648
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by stubbsonic »

You've done a good job clearly stating your situation.

Here's my two cents...

1. Garageband is cheap, and pretty powerful. It does come with a huge selection of sounds- both VIs and loops. It will give you lots to play with. But it has some limitations that some will find to be deal-breakers. For example, you can't change the time-signature partway through a piece, and not all time-signatures are available. Seems like many people do 4/4 24-7. However, there are workarounds. You can play in anything you want and ignore the barlines. The effects are good, and there are some import/export options to get your tracks out to other DAWs. Automation is very tiny and fiddly to work with. Notation is just cute but not usable.

2. Logic- it is a good price for all the things it includes. It contains a ridiculous amount of VI's, loops and effects. Most quite good. Some just good enough. But don't expect it to be particularly user-friendly, quick-to-learn, or intuitive. In short, Logic is a bargain, contains tons of toys, but IMHO not that easy or fun to learn. It is kind of a pretty interface.

3. DP8- though it sounds like you want a smooth, shallow learning curve, and more bundled VI's, you didn't really mention your budget. DP doesn't have enough VI's to compete with Logic on that category. But it does have better effects IMHO. You could consider getting DP8 and some sample VI like Kontakt. Where DP8 excels is that it is a fantastic composer's tool, it is a powerful music editor, and it has best-in-class MIDI editing.

Others will chime in. I summon thee gods and goddesses of the nation come forth.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15227
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by mikehalloran »

When someone asks me, I ask how well they know GarageBand. If the answer is really well, then get Logic Pro X. When you are tired of its limitations, then it really depends on what you want to do what to buy.

If you are new to DAWs, Digital Performer is the way to go. I've never seen a project that was too complex for it to handle yet simple projects are quite easy. Between video tutorials and the searchable user guide, you'll be up and running in a day.

If all you want to do are loop based projects, there are other tools that you might like better. The problem with many of those is that it becomes too easy to sound like everybody else.

I edit others' Logic projects in DP. I export all the MIDI and audio files (takes a few seconds to trigger the routine) and then import into DP. No one would ever ask me to edit a DP project in Logic. Once you have used both, it doesn't make sense.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4.1, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by Shooshie »

Not much for me to add to the very well-considered responses above. I'll branch out onto a side-track; MOTU VIs.

DP comes with a handful of bundled VIs. Many people try them out and come here all disappointed and upset, screaming (if fonts can scream) what the heck (if heck started with an F)??? How am I supposed to use THIS crap to do my sounds???

My answer: learn them. I never set out to be a sound programming guru, and I'm not. We have some great synth-patch guys here who even do it for a living, like David Polich, so I'm not going to pretend to be on their level. But I've been programming sounds since the mid-1980s when I got involved with MIDI, and I've done it on a lot of instruments, both real and virtual. What I found in MOTU's bundled VIs was like a summary of all the instruments I've seen. No, they do not have lots of features or advanced capabilities; they aren't meant to. Instead, MOTU's synth designers looked at all the synths out there and said "how can we represent those sounds as efficiently as possible, with the fewest controls, for the widest range of capabilities?"

After you've been through about a million synth presets, you realize that they all fall into categories and sub-categories: additive, subtractive, analog, digital, FM, sample-modeling, etc., each producing pads, leads, FX, bass, yadda, yadda... with sounds that range from airy to rubbery, spiky to smooth, one instrument to the whole choir.

MOTU created instruments that addressed these categories, with abbreviated controls that quite nicely capture the essence of tons of complicated programming, simply by dialing in a few variables in different combinations. The instruments make a tiny CPU footprint, so you can run a dozen instances of each with no problem. Need multitimbral capabilities? Add more instances. Need larger, more complicated sounds with more LFOs, etc.? Add more instances and run them combined in a device-group. Need wetter, more sparkly, thump-pumping, spiky, airy, rubbery, bassy, lead-shrieking tone? Get out your EQ and compressors, or sound shaping tools like the Waves C4 or C6, Maxx-Bass, or what-have-you.

You will find bundled VIs in DP that handle the broad categories of synths and programming, and you'll find that you can make them produce amazing ranges of sounds by learning to finesse the controls. But rather than go "is that all there is?" think like a sound programmer: I want to combine this wave with that wave... I want to EQ this until it's almost out of phase with itself... I want reverb that lasts a year... and use VI combinations and other appropriate tools to make that happen.

I realized this about synths very early on, and limited myself to fewer and fewer each year rather than buying more and more. My synth-rack (the real one over my workstation) still has 3 synths from the 80s and 90s which I rarely use, but which are still quite capable of producing a huge range of sounds. When VIs came out, I went wild at first, but I finally limited myself to just a few*, and I've been perfectly happy with what I can do with them. Sure, I could buy more, and use a $500 synth VI to get that one sound that's so beautiful it just makes the music for me, but I can also use the ones I have and tweak them and get very close. No, I cannot match every sound in Omnisphere. That guy's a pro. I'm not. But everybody else has his sounds. I'm the only one who has MY sounds! (not that anyone else would want them) :lol:

So, before knocking MOTU's seemingly limited synth bundles, let's consider what I just said, plus the fact that a) they're free, and b) they take up almost no room on disk, in the CPU, or in the project. Consider also that you can master these instruments. There are many synths that I've programmed endlessly that I'll never consider myself a master of. These little MOTU synths are easily figured out, and at a functional level — where you imagine a sound and produce it in very little time — you CAN master these instruments.

Conversely, you try to learn a loop library like Logic's, and by the time you even HEAR all that's in there, you could have mastered all the MOTU VIs and finished a few dozen projects. There is something to be said for simplicity and brevity, unlike this post. MOTU took that approach and gave us (literally gave us) instruments that will handle about 95% of all circumstances with a little ingenuity.

That's worth something, I think.

Shooshie

*Those few VI synths are Tassman 4, Ultra Analog, Mach 5 (yes, it has synth controls), and the MOTU Bundled Synths. These always exceed my expectations. I've got many others, but I haven't even updated them in years.
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

You said not much to add? ;)
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by Shooshie »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:You said not much to add? ;)
Well, nothing to add to the real message which you guys covered:

• Garageband is a can of toy building blocks, already engineered to snap together and make a neat looking (sounding) building.

• DP is a Yankee Workshop where you can produce anything that can be made of the materials you like to use.

The satisfaction derived from either is proportionate to the amount of time it will take you to figure them out, at which point you will be pleased to know that DP can still take you the distance. Garageband, oh the other hand, soon gets old, snapping together little toy buildings and saying "look what I did!"

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
cuttime
Posts: 4305
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by cuttime »

Don't forget MainStage3, likely the best bargain in bundled VIs out there.
828x MacOS 13.6.6 M1 Studio Max 1TB 64G DP11.31
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15227
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by mikehalloran »

cuttime wrote:Don't forget MainStage3, likely the best bargain in bundled VIs out there.
Yes, it has all of the VIs from Logic for $29.95. Buying it also qualifies you for Crossgrade pricing to MachFive.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4.1, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
stubbsonic
Posts: 4648
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by stubbsonic »

To be perfectly clear, though. If you buy MainStage 3, you can only use all those effects and VI's within MainStage. They aren't suddenly available in a DAW. People have worked out ways to pipe MIDI from their DAW to MS3 and audio back from MS3 to their DAW. But that is some of that learning curve that the OP might not like getting dirty hands from.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
musicman691

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by musicman691 »

I think one of the knocks against stock vi's in any daw is that at one time they had a deservedly bad reputation and were horrid sounding. Especially when NI first came out with the vi's they had it made stock stuff sound pretty bad. Now daw developers have caught up to a certain extent. Agreed learning the ins and outs of stock vi's would be a biggie and it would help one get work done but if one has to struggle to get a certain sound then it's not worth it. And don't forget that there are some sounds that need specific architectures to be accomplished that aren't in stock vi's.

Take FM synthesis - sure some synths can fake it but it's not going to be anywheres near as good as NI FM8 (or an original DX7 :D ). Then there are some things only spectral synthesis can do but that too require specific programming on the developer's part. I have certain softsynths because of the sound they get without having to cobble something together in a stock vi.

You want a good sampler - you're going to have to go outside stock vi's. So one would be looking at Mach 5, NI Kontakt or the East West Play engine stuff. I have yet to find a decent sampler in the three daw's I've used over the years (Sonar 8.3.1 and earlier, PT10 and PT11, and now DP 8.07).

And I'm a sucker for older synths like Moogs, Yamaha CS80, ARP 2600, etc. Start talking about those and that's definitely third party.
User avatar
menright
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:48 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by menright »

i've been using DP for a long time (when it was still just P) and my productivity exploded when I got MachFive and MX4. Particularly when MachFive 3 came out and everything got a lot easier. I've got a few other UVI instruments but I am very, very, happy with what I have.
MacBook Pro 17' 2.66 GHz Intel Core i7, 8 GB, DP9.1, MachFive3, Ethno2, Synthmaster, Waves, UVI, Ableton Live
User avatar
iGirl
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:53 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Joaquin Valley California

Re: Virtual Instruments - how many?

Post by iGirl »

So much thanks to everyone - some excellent replies and lots of expert information. I've never even used Garageband and only have the old version, but it's probably worth the $5* for the new one just to take a look... While my DP8 upgrade cost is $150 - cost is less of a concern than time learning how to get from point A to B. I'm sure I can find out if it's a fit in the trial period so that's probably a good way to go for now. $200 for Logic with more VIs sounds appealing too though. Whatever DAW, If it's linear recording & sequencing, that will do just fine. I'm not into pattern or loop based stuff.

Besides VI, one can always go old school and just hook up hardware and record to tracks. I'm putting some of that together again too (I'm an expert level K2000 series user). :-)

*I'll want to look into hooking into Garageband VIs from DP. As mentioned here - http://www.motu.com/techsupport/technot ... 6218004846

Thanks again, this has really helped me clarify a plan.
Started using Performer when it was version 1.0 !
Post Reply