using DP8 in a live ambient concert

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menright
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using DP8 in a live ambient concert

Post by menright »

I posted this in an incorrect forum earlier so I'm trying again.

In a few months I'm going to playing a live solo concert with DP8. I haven't played out since 1986 and I'm terrified. I'm mostly writing and recording electronica/ambient stuff these days and that is what they're expecting me to do. I've been using DP since '89 and know it pretty well but I've never done anything like this.

I would like to be able to loop a chunk or a track group for as long as I feel is right. I'm going to be dropping in a bit of guitar and triggering transient samples every once in a while on top of this. When I'm ready to move on, I would like a single keystroke to open more synced tracks to build up or tear down the loop. I would like to do this by triggering a new chunk, or if that's not possible, play-enable a group of tracks, or perhaps jump to a marker where more tracks are waiting.

I know this would probably be easier in another program (particularly Ableton Live) but I want to see if I can do it through DP, which I love and can improvise within when something goes wrong. I build my sequences using v-racked synths and Mach5, and for the gig I will probably bounce all sequences and just trigger audio files. I will trigger either through my laptop's keypad or an Akai MPK mini.

Can anyone give me some advice on doing this? The ideal would be to load a bunch of chunks full of rendered audio, and hit a keystroke whenever I want to move to another chunk. Through all my tests I've only been able to switch chunks when they are done playing, and not on the fly. Is this even possible or should I look to another approach?

Thanks so much if you can help!
Mike E
MacBook Pro 17' 2.66 GHz Intel Core i7, 8 GB, DP9.1, MachFive3, Ethno2, Synthmaster, Waves, UVI, Ableton Live
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BKK-OZ
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Re: using DP8 in a live ambient concert

Post by BKK-OZ »

I see you have M5.

Couldn't you do everything you want to do pretty easily within a standalone instance of M5?
Cheers,
BK

…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
- M Kaku
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menright
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Re: using DP8 in a live ambient concert

Post by menright »

thanks for the reply, Oz! I'm thinking about that. I guess I would do bounces of the each set of tracks, run them as a fairly long loop in a MF part, and then mute and unmute to to hear new loops stored in other parts? or layer all the loops in one part, and trigger via key velocity from my controller?
MacBook Pro 17' 2.66 GHz Intel Core i7, 8 GB, DP9.1, MachFive3, Ethno2, Synthmaster, Waves, UVI, Ableton Live
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BKK-OZ
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Re: using DP8 in a live ambient concert

Post by BKK-OZ »

I would put the sounds into different parts, with specific MIDI routing (channels) for each part. That way you could get a helluva lot of easily triggerable (new word!) sounds into one M5 set up.

One key press/MIDI trigger would be all you need to get an audio track going.

Be mindful of M5's finicky performance issues though. Some info here on that: http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 30#p497862
Cheers,
BK

…string theory says that all subatomic particles of the universe are nothing but musical notes. A, B-flat, C-sharp, correspond to electrons, neutrinos, quarks, and what have you. Therefore, physics is nothing but the laws of harmony of these strings. Chemistry is nothing but the melodies we can play on these strings. The universe is a symphony of strings and the mind of God… it is cosmic music resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace.
- M Kaku
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Shooshie
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Re: using DP8 in a live ambient concert

Post by Shooshie »

Whatever route you choose, practice thoroughly for all possible outcomes before going on stage. We do this stuff without real pressure when we're working on files. Live Music, on the other hand, is a perfection/timed sequence of actions which we practice that way, but not working with a DAW.

I was a music director who had to integrate DP with live musicians for 20 years. These are two very different worlds, and putting them together is an experience unique in live performance. There's NOTHING to be afraid of, if you practice. You can't accidentally have the wrong chunk open, or be cued to the wrong measure, or have the wrong tracks play-enabled, etc., but it's good to set up your practice session with some things out of place and wrong, just so you have the experience of getting SNAFUs back to Situation Normal and continuing without missing a beat. In addition to private practice, also do a dress rehearsal before a live audience of friends before you go on stage. But pretend they're not your friends, but your worst critics (which friends sometimes can be), and just see if you can get your adrenaline pumping. Being cool under pressure is not innate. You learn it. (an old saying is "heroes are made, not born.")

I predict you will make some decisions:
1) Simplify, simplify, simplify. Anything that can be done in advance in such a way as to LOOK like it's spontaneous and improvised is a much safer bet.
2) Add cues. Chunk Comments and/or Markers are great ways to add something like "when the lead singer says 'ROCK ON,' hit PLAY exactly on Ro."
3) If you end up using DP, you'll need to learn about chunk-chaining. There's the kind that cues the next chunk and awaits your action, or there's the kind that simply continues to the next chunk with only a slight pause between them. If you must do it without pause, combine chunks.
4) If latency becomes a problem, bounce to disk. (See #1: Simplify)
5) Chunks Window has a comments field. Use it. You can expand the Chunks Window across your screen and read even long comments if necessary. These can be cues, or directions for you.
6) If this is a one-time thing, you may not want to do this, but if this is going to be the way you work for potentially hundreds of shows, you will probably want to look into running a redundant system. Look up Mike McKnight and see what hardware he uses to cue the backup system in case of a failure. Basically, he keeps a running track with something like SMPTE striping, so that the hardware senses the presence of constant data. When the data stops, it switches to the redundant system, which has been staying synced with the #1 system via SMPTE. He also uses some system for vamping, so that he can keep a riff going while the singer interacts with the audience, then he can hit GO when the singer cues the band.
7) Sometimes there are pauses in the recorded music, but the beat must go on. You can make cues that either beep in your phones or flash a MIDI-activtated light to count off a cue for when DP comes back in, so that you can be sure everyone is exactly on the beat. OF course, a great drummer should have no problem doing that without cues, but... well... sometimes it's complicated. We used to have ritardandos and fermatas, then had to come back in together. I could not have done it without carefully crafted cues.

I repeat: there is nothing to be afraid of if you prepare and practice. Once you've done this a few times, it's easy as can be. But if you go out there unprepared, there is absolutely no telling what kinds of pitfalls await you. Just be sure you give yourself at least 10 sessions.

Shoosh
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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Shooshie
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Re: using DP8 in a live ambient concert

Post by Shooshie »

PS: in 20 years of concerts with DP running on two systems, the backup system patiently waiting for a failure, I never had to use it. I watched lighting systems fail, sound systems fail, entire electrical grid failure, musician failure... but DP on the Mac NEVER failed on stage. Not once. Not even a hiccup. Of course we were't trying to riff with POLAR or do anything too fancy ("simplify," remember?), but some of it was pretty heavy stuff, and DP always worked seamlessly, allowing me to focus on keeping the musicians in time with it.

"Grid failure" reminded me of one funny incident in Anaheim, when we were playing for a Yamaha group during NAMM. The top guy of Yamaha (the old Japanese guy who nobody gets to talk to) was in the audience, and since we were using about $350,000 of Yamaha stuff, we wanted to impress him. It was at a dinner theater not far from NAMM, and we had built a new stage inside it, just for our show, because the place just wasn't made for something as large as ours. We were worried about the antiquated electrics, and much more. It would be a miracle if we got through this without any incidents.

At about ten minutes to intermission, our power went off. Everything. Turns out, the theater staff started all the coffee pots in anticipation of intermission, and with our stuff already stressing the old breakers to the max, the coffee pots were the bales of hay that broke the camel's back.

After the show, I asked the Yamaha Top Dog what he thought. He looked at me kind of funny, as if I were invading his space, but then said in broken English: "it OK. Power should been better." Then about 5 Yamaha executives rushed to his side to shield him from a mere music director. I was told "nobody talks to him unless he commands it." I replied, "correction; no Yamaha employees talk to him unless he commands them. I'm not his employee." I said hello to him in passing a few other times, and he politely smiled and bowed. I'm sure he was thinking "stupid uncultured American," but that didn't bother me. We had done the best we could under the circumstances. We had offered to use a better theater that could accommodate our show, better facilities all around, but a Yamaha exec was buddies with the owner of this one, so we used it. Sometimes the cards are just stacked against you.

Anyway, to repeat: DP never failed me, power grid notwithstanding.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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stubbsonic
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Re: using DP8 in a live ambient concert

Post by stubbsonic »

It would have been funny (and kind of awesome) if you had your computer on a UPS, and were somehow able to have DP just keep playing something during the power outage -- like a boss!!

Funny story about that Yamaha muckety muck. I'm so glad you stayed in his face. Moxie.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

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Re: using DP8 in a live ambient concert

Post by Killahurts »

Shooshie wrote:After the show, I asked the Yamaha Top Dog what he thought. He looked at me kind of funny, as if I were invading his space, but then said in broken English: "it OK. Power should been better." Then about 5 Yamaha executives rushed to his side to shield him from a mere music director. I was told "nobody talks to him unless he commands it." I replied, "correction; no Yamaha employees talk to him unless he commands them. I'm not his employee." I said hello to him in passing a few other times, and he politely smiled and bowed. I'm sure he was thinking "stupid uncultured American," but that didn't bother me.
This is simply too good not to repeat.. you 'da man Shoosh! :dance:

We just got done performing a concert of the same sort of music as the OP. It was a really complex setup, and there were some problems, but NEVER with DP. It was on a laptop with multiple tracks being output via USB to a digital console. We had DP set up to where each song had its own sequence in the Chunks window. This gave us the ability to enable/disable MIDI input tracks for each sequence, to play the virtual instruments we had in our V-Rack, from anything in our MIDI Time Piece, or a USB MIDI guitar we had.. Even for songs that had no accompanying tracks, we still had a sequence in there, for that reason. We set up the Chunks window to automatically cue each song. We had in-ear monitors, so we could output separate cues/click tracks, etc. into only our monitors, not in the house. We used 8 audio outputs. DP operated perfectly for all the rehearsals and through the whole performance. all on a 2011, 17-inch MBP, 16 GB RAM, with 1 internal Mercury Extreme SSD, newest DP8.
DP11, 2019 16-Core Mac Pro, Monterey, 64GB RAM. RME HDSPe MADI FX to SSL Alphalink to SSL Matrix console, and multiple digital sub consoles. UAD Quad PCIe. Outboard stuff.
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Re: using DP8 in a live ambient concert

Post by Sergio09 »

How nice post! I am a fan of live music events. There is an upcoming music show at my favorite live music bar nyc. It will be a New Year Eve special show so I am very excited for this. Anyway, thanks for this post dear!
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