Controller 64 Data Oddness

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Rick Cornish
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Controller 64 Data Oddness

Post by Rick Cornish »

Hi everyone........
Trying out a new keyboard controller (Roland A-88) and noticed some new behavior:

I'm used to seeing sustain pedal messages (Controller 64) appear as either On or Off. Now I'm getting numeric values as well. Looks like this in my Event List…

2|3|277 ∆ #64 | 79
2|3|290 ∆ #64 | 126
2|3|303 ∆ #64 | On
3|2|355 ∆ #64 | 77
3|2|369 ∆ #64 | 31
3|2|382 ∆ #64 | 7
3|2|395 ∆ #64 | Off

Can't find a place on the controller to change this, nor can I find anything in the DP manual that discusses this. Any ideas on how I can avoid having this extraneous data cluttering up my event lists?

Thanks......
Rick Cornish

DP 11 on M2 Mac Studio (64mB mem. + 2tB int. SSD + two 2tB ext. SSDs, and Mac OS Sonoma). VIs from MOTU, Spectrasonics, NI, UVI, 8dio, Soniccouture, East West, Spitfire, Heavyocity, Vir2, and more; plus Waves 14, Brainworx, iZotope, Wavesfactory, Oeksound, Final Mix, JST, SPL, PSP, UVI, Valhalla DSP, and other FX plugs, Roland A-88, Apogee Quartet, iCON Platform Nano, Genelec 1032a and Westlake BBSM4 monitors, Gibson HR Fusion III. rickcornish.net
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Shooshie
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Re: Controller 64 Data Oddness

Post by Shooshie »

Rick Cornish wrote:Hi everyone........
Trying out a new keyboard controller (Roland A-88) and noticed some new behavior:

I'm used to seeing sustain pedal messages (Controller 64) appear as either On or Off. Now I'm getting numeric values as well. Looks like this in my Event List…

2|3|277 ∆ #64 | 79
2|3|290 ∆ #64 | 126
2|3|303 ∆ #64 | On
3|2|355 ∆ #64 | 77
3|2|369 ∆ #64 | 31
3|2|382 ∆ #64 | 7
3|2|395 ∆ #64 | Off

Can't find a place on the controller to change this, nor can I find anything in the DP manual that discusses this. Any ideas on how I can avoid having this extraneous data cluttering up my event lists?

Thanks......
Preferences / Editing / Continuous Data / "Switches are Continuous Data."

Deselect that, and you'll get back your old square-wave on/off switches for Controller 64. In real life, Piano pedals are continuous controllers. The better piano VI libraries emulate that for half-pedaling effects. Same with Controller 67, the UnaCorda shift pedal. Yamaha's Disklavier will respond to the full-range of pedal controllers, which not only allows more sensitive playing, but avoids a nasty "CLUNK" every time it switches on or off any of the pedals, whose giant solenoids must respond quite unnaturally if you use those controllers as switches. Do that for very long and your Disklavier Grand Piano will detune itself!

But most synth players couldn't care less about sustain pedals as continuous data, since all that extra continuous data doesn't really do anything unless a sound patch is programmed to do so. But pianos... that's another story. I leave my pedals as continuous data, for the pianos.

Shoosh
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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Rick Cornish
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Re: Controller 64 Data Oddness

Post by Rick Cornish »

Awesome—will check it out next time I get in front of my gear.

Many thanks, Shooshie!
Rick Cornish

DP 11 on M2 Mac Studio (64mB mem. + 2tB int. SSD + two 2tB ext. SSDs, and Mac OS Sonoma). VIs from MOTU, Spectrasonics, NI, UVI, 8dio, Soniccouture, East West, Spitfire, Heavyocity, Vir2, and more; plus Waves 14, Brainworx, iZotope, Wavesfactory, Oeksound, Final Mix, JST, SPL, PSP, UVI, Valhalla DSP, and other FX plugs, Roland A-88, Apogee Quartet, iCON Platform Nano, Genelec 1032a and Westlake BBSM4 monitors, Gibson HR Fusion III. rickcornish.net
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Re: Controller 64 Data Oddness

Post by Rick Cornish »

Sorry, Sooshie. Looks like this does not work. From the manual…

The Switches are Continuous Data check box, when checked, causes all controllers, including switch controllers #64 and above, to be displayed and edited as continuous controllers in the continuous data grid of the MIDI Editor and Sequence Editor. This is useful for MIDI devices, such as MIDI- controlled lighting consoles, that use all MIDI controllers as continuous controllers.

I'm also working with Roland to see if that can be turned off at the controller, but it seems like it maybe should be an input filter kind of thing, though it doesn't seem like there's (at least presently) a way to ignore all incoming Controller 64 data except values of 0 and 127.
Rick Cornish

DP 11 on M2 Mac Studio (64mB mem. + 2tB int. SSD + two 2tB ext. SSDs, and Mac OS Sonoma). VIs from MOTU, Spectrasonics, NI, UVI, 8dio, Soniccouture, East West, Spitfire, Heavyocity, Vir2, and more; plus Waves 14, Brainworx, iZotope, Wavesfactory, Oeksound, Final Mix, JST, SPL, PSP, UVI, Valhalla DSP, and other FX plugs, Roland A-88, Apogee Quartet, iCON Platform Nano, Genelec 1032a and Westlake BBSM4 monitors, Gibson HR Fusion III. rickcornish.net
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Shooshie
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Re: Controller 64 Data Oddness

Post by Shooshie »

Well, in that case, use a switch pedal for CC#64. Any pedal you used for pedal data on old keyboards would probably work. They send on/off commands. You're using an Expression pedal for Sustain, which is valid for piano libraries like Ivory (if you turn on "Half-Pedaling"), but what you want is just on/off, so use a switch.

I could have sworn that turning off "Switches are Continuous Data" interpreted everything as either 0 or 127. I guess it does, but it's still receiving dozens of values, all of which are being interpreted as ON or Off. That doesn't help when you still have to plow through a thousand of them, does it? :lol:

So, the answer would be either to filter the incoming MIDI, or to use a switch pedal. It depends on your keyboard whether the switch pedal will actually work, when plugged into an expression pedal jack. That's probably going to depend on whether the jack and pedal are both analog or both digital. Obviously an analog pedal won't work in a digital jack, or vice versa. But to my knowledge, the only analog expression pedals out there were old Yamaha devices from the 80s or 90s, and possibly other makes from the 80s. They were a pain, and had to be calibrated. If yours does not require calibration, it's digital, so then it's a matter of finding out whether your switch pedals are also digital, or if they are literally switches. I'm betting there is a hardware solution to this. In fact, you might check the jacks on the back of your keyboard. There could well be different jacks for expression and switches.

Failing that, you can always buy a pedal unit, such as the Roland FC300, which includes two expression pedals and about a dozen switch pedals (two banks of 5, plus two others). This would be the no-hassle approach, though it's more expensive. On the other hand, this pedal board gives you SUPER control over your instrument libraries, via Expression, Volume, or any other controllers you decide to route through the two expressive pedals. You can even do transport commands for DP using the switch pedals.

Another option: Custom Consoles. Here's one outfitted to your needs:
Image
With a minimum value change of 127 allowed, it basically filters out all the other values. Note that you have to fully depress the pedal before it changes to "on." I haven't tested this, so I can't guarantee its effectiveness, but Custom Consoles are always a little squirrelly until you get them tamed. Then they usually work right every time.

I'm not even checking the Input Filter, because I don't think it differentiates between VALUES of a controller; just controller numbers.

My choice? If the keyboard doesn't have an input for switch pedals (hard to imagine), that would be the FC300, or another MIDI pedal unit. It does what you want, requires only a MIDI port on your MIDI Express or whatever you use, and perhaps a few minutes to set it up for the controller you want.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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Rick Cornish
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Re: Controller 64 Data Oddness

Post by Rick Cornish »

Wow! Thanks for taking me to school, Sooshie!

I have a switch pedal, which I tried today and did not work. One of the techs at Sweetwater suggested one they have ($20), which has a polarity switch, which might make a difference. He also wondered if I were to power the controller down, then plug in the pedal before powering back up would enable the controller to sense the polarity of the switch (I guess some do). Will try that tomorrow before I dive into your custom console suggestion.

A lot of trouble to just screen out a few undesired controller messages. Learning to live with it is another option.

Thanks again!
Rick Cornish

DP 11 on M2 Mac Studio (64mB mem. + 2tB int. SSD + two 2tB ext. SSDs, and Mac OS Sonoma). VIs from MOTU, Spectrasonics, NI, UVI, 8dio, Soniccouture, East West, Spitfire, Heavyocity, Vir2, and more; plus Waves 14, Brainworx, iZotope, Wavesfactory, Oeksound, Final Mix, JST, SPL, PSP, UVI, Valhalla DSP, and other FX plugs, Roland A-88, Apogee Quartet, iCON Platform Nano, Genelec 1032a and Westlake BBSM4 monitors, Gibson HR Fusion III. rickcornish.net
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Shooshie
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Re: Controller 64 Data Oddness

Post by Shooshie »

I spent some time trying to get the Custom Console idea to work. I succeeded, but it crashed DP, and it did it every time I tried to record data with it. Your mileage may vary, but I'd stick with a hardware solution for now.

My favorite choice:
Image

Roland FC300. It's built like a tank, and it can help you in a thousand and one situations. This is a great piece of gear to have, especially if you use a lot of orchestral VIs.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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Re: Controller 64 Data Oddness

Post by monkey man »

I thought it was the BarfRinger unit that you liked... actually, swore by, 'Meister.

Am I simply way behind the times?

Mac 2012 12C Cheese Grater, OSX 10.13.6
MOTU DP8.07, MachFive 3.2.1, MIDI Express XT, 24I/O
Novation, Yamaha & Roland Synths, Guitar & Bass, Kemper Rack

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Rick Cornish
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Re: Controller 64 Data Oddness

Post by Rick Cornish »

Tried and failed to get the custom console to work—though admittedly this was my first try at building one and I didn't spend hours on it. The $20 pedal is looking like an easier solution.
Rick Cornish

DP 11 on M2 Mac Studio (64mB mem. + 2tB int. SSD + two 2tB ext. SSDs, and Mac OS Sonoma). VIs from MOTU, Spectrasonics, NI, UVI, 8dio, Soniccouture, East West, Spitfire, Heavyocity, Vir2, and more; plus Waves 14, Brainworx, iZotope, Wavesfactory, Oeksound, Final Mix, JST, SPL, PSP, UVI, Valhalla DSP, and other FX plugs, Roland A-88, Apogee Quartet, iCON Platform Nano, Genelec 1032a and Westlake BBSM4 monitors, Gibson HR Fusion III. rickcornish.net
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Shooshie
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Re: Controller 64 Data Oddness

Post by Shooshie »

Rick Cornish wrote:Tried and failed to get the custom console to work—though admittedly this was my first try at building one and I didn't spend hours on it. The $20 pedal is looking like an easier solution.
I've been making Custom Consoles since about 1991 or so, and have made probably hundreds of them. I actually have a pretty good idea of how it works, but to this day, every single one I make turns out to be a trial-&-error affair. There's just something weird about the way it works. Once I get one working, it usually works for a while, but getting it there can be a battle. Then there's the stability issue. The one I made to test your situation worked, but crashed within seconds of producing data, every time.

MOTU needs to revisit the Custom Consoles and figure out how to make them easier to create and more reliable to use.

I'd be looking at a pedal at this point, too!

Shoosh
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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