Creating MIDI Regions in Sequence Editor?

[Shooshie]

DP has many shortcomings, and always has. Lack of regions, IMO, isn't one of them. But that's just a difference of opinion, based on our work preferences. I've never been one to focus on the lacks, except in threads that are about things we'd change if we could, and even then I wonder the utility of talking about it, other than getting it off our minds and in print.

I send my suggestions directly to MOTU. Sometimes they become features. Sometimes not. Sometimes I send it again and again for years, and it finally becomes a feature. Still waiting on some of those.

But I hear people's frustrations with "work-arounds" often, as if it's disgraceful or too much work, or I don't know just exactly what the problem is, sometimes. Here's the bottom line: we have what we have. We can use it or not. If you use it, you can make it easier with work-arounds. In fact, I don't call them that. They're just methods. I find paths in the menus and commands, and I think through it and figure out a way that gets me from Point A to Point B in the fewest moves or fastest time. Then I memorize it and use it. I've done that for close to 30 years of using DP. If you want to wait for your favorite wish to become a feature, be my guest, but you'll be waiting a long time. The methods that can be created in something as flexible as DP allow you to get back to work right now and do things, quickly.

There are plenty of other DAWs. If they suit you, use them. It's really that simple. You can continue to use DP for what you need it for, but there's no reason to be unhappy using it. Use what makes you happy. I'm fine with DP, but I've been with it a long, long time.

Shooshie

[FMiguelez]

I think we crossed-posted, Shoosh. Please read my previous post. Turns out, we don't really need regions

Obviously, this hasn't been a deal-breaker for me. It's just one of those things where improvement couldn't be more obvious and needed.

These things aren't always obvious - until you need them. Most times, I'm able to deal with that situation by working with stems, but for many different reasons, it's not always possible, and that's when it becomes quite annoying and one can't stop wondering why such elementary issues haven't been fixed.

I love DP. I wouldn't dream of switching DAWs at this point. And that's exactly why I want DP to become as good as it can. There's a lot of room for improvement. Some of it should be placed under the "URGENT" pile.

[Michael Canavan]

I think the most obvious way regions could be included in DP and not even be a hassle at all to older users, be totally transparent actually is if MOTU introduced it only in the Tracks Overview.
Dynamic Phrase Parsing, what DP does with MIDI 'phrases' currently is DP deciding what a MIDI file should be broken into in the Tracks Overview, and you can make selections based on this. In other DAWs this is a full fledged feature, and as Shooshie and others have pointed out it's a pretty invasive feature considering that Logic, Cubase, etc. have only one window for the overall arrangement unlike DP with The Tracks Overview and Sequence Editor.

Mostly the Tracks Overview is already a 'larger selection' window, it's no issue that DP breaks up MIDI data there, and if MOTU ever decided to take phrase parsing to the level of object oriented MIDI in other DAWs (cut copy past glue etc.) without messing up any section methods already in place then DP would have the best of both worlds IMO.


It doesn't make any sense to me to have MIDI in the Sequence Editor object oriented since you can actually see the individual notes there. It's much better without any object oriented stuff getting in the way, but in the Tracks Overview, Dynamic Phrase Parsing isn't as useful as fully object oriented MIDI.

Not a big deal to me, but I think the answer that would make everyone happy would be for object oriented MIDI selections to be limited to the Tracks Overview.

[Shooshie]

Another possible fix would be something I suggested years ago, but which got no traction: saved selections. You select a phrase, a group of notes, or anything — literally anything — and have a one-click save for the selection. They would be remembered like a group. Click on one, and the whole selection comes back. Then you could quantize the selection so that the first note event occurs on the beat, and the rest of the selection moves with it, maintaining the exact relationships between events, timewise.

Better still, in a saved selection, click one event (note, controller, or otherwise) and it becomes the anchor. "Quantize" the selection, and it's the anchor that is moved to the beat. The rest of the selection/group moves with it.

If an event belongs to two or more groups, they are all selected, but SHIFT-Clicking anywhere in the other selections will de-select them until there is one group standing.

This would act like regions. The selection would snap to grid, but disabling the group for a moment would allow quantizing the notes within the selection.

I think this would be a unique approach to "regions" in DP, and it would give me something I've always wanted: selections you can save and bring back with a click in a list.

Meanwhile, I have to say that the Dynamic Phrase Parsing in the Tracks Overview Window, as it currently exists, became much more useful to me years ago when I realized you can control the length of the phrases it parses. If I'm working in a standard pop format, I'll set it for 8 bars, That is, when it goes beyond 2 bars (or 4 bars, or whatever), it will make an 8 bar region. You can change that to 12 bars, 16, or whatever length you want it. You could make it even 1 bar, though that would be redundant with the cells already doing single bars at normal zoom. It's still not a region, not a saved selection or even a real group, but it does make for easy selections of the most natural-length phrases.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Just a few days ago I had to deal with this... I had a very large session with lots of MIDI and audio and aux track automation. I suddenly was required to come up with edits to make lifts to different durations. Every time I attempted to snip or insert measures, DP would mess up most of my automation ramps. Babysitting dozens of tracks for lots of different automation parameters is no fun, so I was forced to freeze all my tracks to print the automation and edit away freely.

It's just such a simple fix that I'm surprised MOTU hasn't addressed it yet. The algorithm would be so simple to implement...

How WOULD you fix that? Let's take a MIDI section in which there are some long piano phrases with continuous pedal. (and let's say it's full-range pedaling, not just on/off) In cutting stuff out, you have also cut out the pedal reset between chord changes. How would DP know what to do? How would it determine where to put the pedal release and depression? How would it recreate the half-pedaling you were doing originally?

And automation? Would it just ramp between the boundaries of the cut?

Give me an example of how other DAWs handle this, and a situation where it would work cleanly without your having to come back around and clean it up. With Lines Mode, it only takes a second to fix it, anyway. I usually get those kinds of things fixed very quickly, though if there are a lot of controllers, it gets exponentially harder and more time consuming.

I see the need for it; I just don't know how it might work in most cases.

And what about the stuff that is in tracks in closed folders with lots of takes? Should they be included in the snip or merge operations? All this needs is a simple preference that can be checked or unchecked.

By all means, we NEED THESE OPTIONS! Until Take Comping, I could live without it, though I've always thought we really needed for it to work this way. But since Take Comping and Track Folders, it's unthinkable that cutting or any other kind of edit on a track doesn't have an option for bringing all takes with it. This really, really should be there. Even just a little box that says "include takes."

So I really think MOTU could fix those issues without resorting to adding optional regions.
Other than this, I couldn't care less for having or not regions.

I'd still like to see savable selections, which automatically are added to a list by first track and location, but the name would be editable like those in the Tracks Overview Window. One click anywhere in the selection or on the list item would bring back the selection instantly, like audio groups. Once saved, the selection would act as a single unit or event, nudging together, dragging together, copy/cutting/pasting/snipping together, etc., not to mention transposing and other edits.

This would solve so many problems, and it would give Logic and Cubase converts the "regions" they desire, albeit in a different, DP-ish, way.

By the way, we have the ability to save a selection range, but it's a temporary holder, like a variable storage in a calculator which can be recalled later in the equation. There's only room for one, and it's a range selection, not an event selection, and it doesn't group the selection for editing as a single unit. I'd love to see that updated to the above idea.

Shooshie

[frankf]

Another possible fix would be something I suggested years ago, but which got no traction: saved selections. You select a phrase, a group of notes, or anything — literally anything — and have a one-click save for the selection. They would be remembered like a group. Click on one, and the whole selection comes back. Then you could quantize the selection so that the first note event occurs on the beat, and the rest of the selection moves with it, maintaining the exact relationships between events, timewise.

Better still, in a saved selection, click one event (note, controller, or otherwise) and it becomes the anchor. "Quantize" the selection, and it's the anchor that is moved to the beat. The rest of the selection/group moves with it.

If an event belongs to two or more groups, they are all selected, but SHIFT-Clicking anywhere in the other selections will de-select them until there is one group standing.

This would act like regions. The selection would snap to grid, but disabling the group for a moment would allow quantizing the notes within the selection.

I think this would be a unique approach to "regions" in DP, and it would give me something I've always wanted: selections you can save and bring back with a click in a list.

Meanwhile, I have to say that the Dynamic Phrase Parsing in the Tracks Overview Window, as it currently exists, became much more useful to me years ago when I realized you can control the length of the phrases it parses. If I'm working in a standard pop format, I'll set it for 8 bars, That is, when it goes beyond 2 bars (or 4 bars, or whatever), it will make an 8 bar region. You can change that to 12 bars, 16, or whatever length you want it. You could make it even 1 bar, though that would be redundant with the cells already doing single bars at normal zoom. It's still not a region, not a saved selection or even a real group, but it does make for easy selections of the most natural-length phrases.

Shooshie

Shooshie,
I've read your selection tips post and I'd like to mention 2 commands that are available from the mini menu in the Selection Info window and Selection Info Bar. I use the SE for MIDI editing most of the time so I do not have to be concerned with which track is front most or "active".

1. Set to Selection Bounds: this changes any event selection, note , whatever, into a Time Range Selection.
2. New Saved time: you can name and save a time range selection, dare I say region, for a Project or DP, like Clipping, and recall it by name from same mini menu on any track or multiple tracks.

These are not available in the Commands window, but because the Selection Info Bar is stationery, I'm able to get to it with a Keyboard Maestro Macro.

Saved Times and Clippings are as close as DP gets to the object oriented "regions" in other DAWs. In fact, DPs regions are really DP selections as the Region menu operates on selections. Discrepenciy between DP and other DAWs on what are regions has been discussed for many years. Of course, you already know this


Frank Ferrucci

[bayswater]

Another possible fix would be something I suggested years ago, but which got no traction: saved selections. You select a phrase, a group of notes, or anything — literally anything — and have a one-click save for the selection. They would be remembered like a group. Click on one, and the whole selection comes back.

That could be useful if the events are saved as an entity, and not the selection criteria. But regions it ain't.

Meanwhile, I have to say that the Dynamic Phrase Parsing in the Tracks Overview Window, as it currently exists, became much more useful to me years ago when I realized you can control the length of the phrases it parses. If I'm working in a standard pop format, I'll set it for 8 bars, That is, when it goes beyond 2 bars (or 4 bars, or whatever), it will make an 8 bar region. You can change that to 12 bars, 16, or whatever length you want it. You could make it even 1 bar, though that would be redundant with the cells already doing single bars at normal zoom. It's still not a region, not a saved selection or even a real group, but it does make for easy selections of the most natural-length phrases.

Shooshie

The issue I see is that simple grouping of event for editing is not really the point, or at least the real advantage, of regions or parts. If that's all it was, there's not a lot gained over a decent selection tool. Parts would have their own MIDI routing, articulation parameters, patch selections, quantization, velocity scaling, etc, etc, that is independent of the parameters set for the track. If you don't have this, you still have to put what would be Regions on separate tracks, and so there wouldn't be much point in having Regions in the first place.

As for limiting this to the TO window, I can't see it. The SE is where you do fades, edge edits, etc, where we are going to get lanes, and is well suited to general arranging. If Regions/Parts are more than a preselected group of MIDI events that can be used as outlined above, you'd want to be able to deal with them in the SE along with other arrangement tasks.

If it's going to be done, it has to be done properly, with all the functionality that can be squeezed out of it, but something you can turn off in preferences.

[FMiguelez]

. double post

[FMiguelez]

Just a few days ago I had to deal with this... I had a very large session with lots of MIDI and audio and aux track automation. I suddenly was required to come up with edits to make lifts to different durations. Every time I attempted to snip or insert measures, DP would mess up most of my automation ramps. Babysitting dozens of tracks for lots of different automation parameters is no fun, so I was forced to freeze all my tracks to print the automation and edit away freely.

It's just such a simple fix that I'm surprised MOTU hasn't addressed it yet. The algorithm would be so simple to implement...

How WOULD you fix that? Let's take a MIDI section in which there are some long piano phrases with continuous pedal. (and let's say it's full-range pedaling, not just on/off) In cutting stuff out, you have also cut out the pedal reset between chord changes. How would DP know what to do? How would it determine where to put the pedal release and depression? How would it recreate the half-pedaling you were doing originally?

And automation? Would it just ramp between the boundaries of the cut?

The fix is actually extremely simple, Shoosh.

I'm not a programmer, but I imagine the algorithm would be something like this:


- For every track in the current selection, take note of each automation parameter value that is allowed in the View Filter at the beginning and end of the selection.

------- If merging or pasting, DP should check if the automation parameters match (i.e., perhaps a source track had volume but the target track doesn't currently have any automation on it).
-If they don't match, insert the parameter automatically with the values from the source track.
- If they match, DP should insert in the target tracks whatever current value the automation parameters have 1 tick BEFORE and one tick AFTER the time range selection where the merging will take place.
--> Merge or paste

------ If snipping or inserting measures, DP should take note of any kind of automation allowed in the View Filter for every selected track, and insert whatever current value they have 1 tick before and 1 tick after the time range selection.
--> Snip or Insert Measure


That would take care of the unwanted messed-up ramps and automation-babysitting I've been complaining about.

There could even be an option to deal with sudden parameter jumps that might arise after any of those operations. It could be in a dialog box that pops just before confirming them, so the automation points could be joined smoothly. The option to include takes in selected tracks and closed folders should be here as well>

Create ramps to smooth automation points. Ramp length __ | __ | 001

Include takes in selected tracks
Include takes in tracks inside selected closed folders and subfolders

Give me an example of how other DAWs handle this, and a situation where it would work cleanly without your having to come back around and clean it up. With Lines Mode, it only takes a second to fix it, anyway. I usually get those kinds of things fixed very quickly, though if there are a lot of controllers, it gets exponentially harder and more time consuming.

AFAIK, ANY other DAW that has regions does all that automatically and cleanly. I don't know the details, though.
Nevertheless, I think I have offered a viable and simple solution to a big problem with the suggested algorithm above.

It really is that simple.

MOTU could easily fix this with a few lines of code WITHOUT having to deal with implementing regions at all.

[FMiguelez]

Oh, and while we're at it, another EXTREMELY NEEDED (and easy-to-implement) feature in the Insert Measures dialog box would be to give us the option of choosing the time signature of the inserted measures RIGHT THERE.
If MOTU wanted to go the extra mile, they could include some sort of easy-to-fill table specifying how many measures and their corresponding meters.

As it is now, it defaults to 4/4 (or it defaults to the next measure's meter -I can't remember), so one needs to go back and change the meters as required. Doing this once or twice is fine, but some workflows require doing that multiple times and it becomes an unnecessary time-wasting annoyance.

I'm sure film-scoring (and related) people would really appreciate that feature!

[Michael Canavan]

As for limiting this to the TO window, I can't see it. The SE is where you do fades, edge edits, etc, where we are going to get lanes, and is well suited to general arranging. If Regions/Parts are more than a preselected group of MIDI events that can be used as outlined above, you'd want to be able to deal with them in the SE along with other arrangement tasks.

If it's going to be done, it has to be done properly, with all the functionality that can be squeezed out of it, but something you can turn off in preferences.

You already have the functionality of object oriented selections with Dynamic Phrase Parsing in the TO, it's already the window where you would naturally select chunks of MIDI and cut copy paste it.
The SE works in an entirely different way, adding objects would make as many people unhappy as happy. How for example do you show an object in the MIDI track when you have a clear view of that MIDI tacks contents? That visually gets really messy, In every DAW with object oriented MIDI it's seen as a block, viewing notes etc. is done in the piano roll editors. Quite simply no developer has come up with a way to view MIDI data clearly in a track along with a container/object view. The TO is the natural are of DP where objects could be expanded upon, because it already has it in Dynamic Phrase parsing.

I can't think of a single person who would be unhappy that Phrase Parsing was now user defined, that you can cut, copy, slice, glue, and select phrases however you like.

[Shooshie]

Shooshie,
I've read your selection tips post and I'd like to mention 2 commands that are available from the mini menu in the Selection Info window and Selection Info Bar. I use the SE for MIDI editing most of the time so I do not have to be concerned with which track is front most or "active".

1. Set to Selection Bounds: this changes any event selection, note , whatever, into a Time Range Selection.
2. New Saved time: you can name and save a time range selection, dare I say region, for a Project or DP, like Clipping, and recall it by name from same mini menu on any track or multiple tracks.

These are not available in the Commands window, but because the Selection Info Bar is stationery, I'm able to get to it with a Keyboard Maestro Macro.

Saved Times and Clippings are as close as DP gets to the object oriented "regions" in other DAWs. In fact, DPs regions are really DP selections as the Region menu operates on selections. Discrepenciy between DP and other DAWs on what are regions has been discussed for many years. Of course, you already know this


Frank Ferrucci

Hi Frank,
There is some reason why the Selection Bounds command doesn't work for what I'm doing (picking up controllers in a single track). I don't remember what it is, but I'll try to remember to check it out and get back to you. That was my first discovery before I made the routine I use in the tip.

The Remembered Time command in the Selection field is great for some things, but again, I don't think it's the best for that purpose. For whatever reasons, I've always had to come back to the little routine I put in that post in the Tips Sheet: Working with Selections in DP. Speed may be a factor; I don't remember at this point, but the speed of grabbing your controllers with this method is amazing. It happens in the time you can hit the up and down arrow. That's instantaneous! It's really unobtrusive, but a dedicated "Select Controllers with Notes" command from MOTU would make me gladly give it up.

Still, I'm glad to get those things in the discussion. People tend not to know they exist, and the more people are trying to use them, the more possibilities we'll come up with.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

The issue I see is that simple grouping of event for editing is not really the point, or at least the real advantage, of regions or parts. If that's all it was, there's not a lot gained over a decent selection tool. Parts would have their own MIDI routing, articulation parameters, patch selections, quantization, velocity scaling, etc, etc, that is independent of the parameters set for the track. If you don't have this, you still have to put what would be Regions on separate tracks, and so there wouldn't be much point in having Regions in the first place.

I don't know. I see at least some of that as track related, and I don't like it when the track parameters get blurred. I think some DAWs supposedly allow assigning different MIDI channels to a region. That would make for a mess, in my opinion, where you could no longer go to the track and change those parameters, for you'd have to go searching through the regions to see where the MIDI output changed to something else, etc. Those are Track parameters, and I just don't see anything wrong with adding a track. I used to get up to several hundred tracks of MIDI in the development phase, which I grouped for easy merging later. Then when we were passed that phase, I'd spend some time merging tracks in the TO window, and would get my count back down below a hundred. To me, having those parameters change within containers in a track would be a nightmare.

As for limiting this to the TO window, I can't see it. The SE is where you do fades, edge edits, etc, where we are going to get lanes, and is well suited to general arranging. If Regions/Parts are more than a preselected group of MIDI events that can be used as outlined above, you'd want to be able to deal with them in the SE along with other arrangement tasks.

Again, I see the solution as a saved selection, which becomes a group. A list with check boxes can either select the saved selection, or it can turn on/off the grouping feature. (it can be just a selection) When turned on, the group acts as a unit. Any action performed on any item or part of the group affects the entire group as a solid body. This gives you vast powers over a monolithic body of data, while leaving it transparent by default, the way we now see it and use it.

I'm going to promote this idea to MOTU (again), and see if they'll consider it. I just don't like the idea of containers that act as tracks within tracks. The track should be the fundamental unit. Now, if you want to talk about active track groups, where several tracks become "one," that would be a potential container of the sort you're talking about. The individual track, then, would become the region. The group would function as the track. But again, each "region" would have end-to-end authority over its contents, and you'd still reassign MIDI data in the left column, not some menu on the container or region. I can see Track Folders acting in this capacity if they developed them a little.

But I'm going to push for the Saved Selection. I can see it clearly, and I can see how it would solve most of the problems we've been talking about, except for channel reassignments, which in my opinion are verboten except on the track level.

If it's going to be done, it has to be done properly, with all the functionality that can be squeezed out of it, but something you can turn off in preferences.

Something needs to be done, but I just would not go as far as channel assignments on groupings, regions, or containers within a track. Maybe patch changes, but that's just another MIDI event to be grouped with the rest in the container. But yes, you're right; it needs to be toggled in preferences, but if you used the Saved Selections I described, you'd have a list handy where you could both select and/or determine the nature of the group. Make it a selection or make it a monolithic group in one click. If it's a group, anywhere you click in it would select the whole group. It would act as a single MIDI event, but respond to all commands as if each command were given to the whole group. "Quantize" would not change the inner rhythms and time relationships, but would simply move the object to the beat, based on the anchor point (event) you choose when you click an event to select the group.

THAT would be fast and amazing.

Shoosh

[bayswater]

The issue I see is that simple grouping of events for editing is not really the point, or at least the real advantage, of regions or parts. If that's all it was, there's not a lot gained over a decent selection tool. Parts would have their own MIDI routing, articulation parameters, patch selections, quantization, velocity scaling, etc, etc, that is independent of the parameters set for the track. If you don't have this, you still have to put what would be Regions on separate tracks, and so there wouldn't be much point in having Regions in the first place.

I don't know. I see at least some of that as track related, and I don't like it when the track parameters get blurred. I think some DAWs supposedly allow assigning different MIDI channels to a region. That would make for a mess, in my opinion, where you could no longer go to the track and change those parameters, for you'd have to go searching through the regions to see where the MIDI output changed to something else, etc. Those are Track parameters, and I just don't see anything wrong with adding a track. I used to get up to several hundred tracks of MIDI in the development phase, which I grouped for easy merging later. Then when we were passed that phase, I'd spend some time merging tracks in the TO window, and would get my count back down below a hundred. To me, having those parameters change within containers in a track would be a nightmare.

Yes, it does complicate things, but it is managed by having a separate inspector for the region. Its parameters default to the track parameters, but can be changed for a specific region.

As for limiting this to the TO window, I can't see it. The SE is where you do fades, edge edits, etc, where we are going to get lanes, and is well suited to general arranging. If Regions/Parts are more than a preselected group of MIDI events that can be used as outlined above, you'd want to be able to deal with them in the SE along with other arrangement tasks.

Again, I see the solution as a saved selection, which becomes a group. A list with check boxes can either select the saved selection, or it can turn on/off the grouping feature. (it can be just a selection) When turned on, the group acts as a unit. Any action performed on any item or part of the group affects the entire group as a solid body. This gives you vast powers over a monolithic body of data, while leaving it transparent by default, the way we now see it and use it.

I'm going to promote this idea to MOTU (again), and see if they'll consider it. I just don't like the idea of containers that act as tracks within tracks. The track should be the fundamental unit. Now, if you want to talk about active track groups, where several tracks become "one," that would be a potential container of the sort you're talking about. The individual track, then, would become the region. The group would function as the track. But again, each "region" would have end-to-end authority over its contents, and you'd still reassign MIDI data in the left column, not some menu on the container or region. I can see Track Folders acting in this capacity if they developed them a little.

But I'm going to push for the Saved Selection. I can see it clearly, and I can see how it would solve most of the problems we've been talking about, except for channel reassignments, which in my opinion are verboten except on the track level.

I don't disagree, and I don't necessarily advocate regions. Having the track as the fundamental unit is a good thing, in part because there is a one to one correspondence between a track and a channel strip. In Logic, you don't have a one to one correspondence, in part because the region is the fundamental unit. It gets quite complicated.
[/quote]Tracks within tracks is an interesting idea. Probably more powerful in the end, and more consistent with how DP does things.

(Sorry, I think I got the quoting hopelessly messed up here.)

[frankf]

Shooshie,
I've read your selection tips post and I'd like to mention 2 commands that are available from the mini menu in the Selection Info window and Selection Info Bar. I use the SE for MIDI editing most of the time so I do not have to be concerned with which track is front most or "active".

1. Set to Selection Bounds: this changes any event selection, note , whatever, into a Time Range Selection.
2. New Saved time: you can name and save a time range selection, dare I say region, for a Project or DP, like Clipping, and recall it by name from same mini menu on any track or multiple tracks.

These are not available in the Commands window, but because the Selection Info Bar is stationery, I'm able to get to it with a Keyboard Maestro Macro.

Saved Times and Clippings are as close as DP gets to the object oriented "regions" in other DAWs. In fact, DPs regions are really DP selections as the Region menu operates on selections. Discrepenciy between DP and other DAWs on what are regions has been discussed for many years. Of course, you already know this


Frank Ferrucci

Hi Frank,
There is some reason why the Selection Bounds command doesn't work for what I'm doing (picking up controllers in a single track). I don't remember what it is, but I'll try to remember to check it out and get back to you. That was my first discovery before I made the routine I use in the tip.

The Remembered Time command in the Selection field is great for some things, but again, I don't think it's the best for that purpose. For whatever reasons, I've always had to come back to the little routine I put in that post in the Tips Sheet: Working with Selections in DP. Speed may be a factor; I don't remember at this point, but the speed of grabbing your controllers with this method is amazing. It happens in the time you can hit the up and down arrow. That's instantaneous! It's really unobtrusive, but a dedicated "Select Controllers with Notes" command from MOTU would make me gladly give it up.

Still, I'm glad to get those things in the discussion. People tend not to know they exist, and the more people are trying to use them, the more possibilities we'll come up with.

Shooshie

Shooshie,
The Saved Times commands do catch controllers. No data is saved with the selection. In the SE, I select a track or any bit of a track, evoke my save time and it creates a time range selection, catching everything that's there in the track. All the grow selection commands work as you use them in your tip. The cool thing is that they hold no data, unlike clippings. Say I have a French Hirn and Clarinet doubling a melody with controllers each on their own track. I make a time range selection and save it. If later in the cue I want to use the clarinet playing the same melody solo, I select the clarinet track, invoke my saved time by name and limit the selection to only clarinet, copy and paste to the second location. Works even better for standard song forms. Remembered Times are a temporary time range selection, they are overwritten next time you use the command.

Selection bounds works here.

You can check this out, but I'm sure you've got your method hard wired to your brain by now, so why change?


Frank Ferrucci