Creating MIDI Regions in Sequence Editor?

[deckard1]

Hello,

This is my first post.

I just moved to DP8, having used Logic for many years. Loving DP8 so far, although I must admit it is quite different than Logic. I am trying to do most of my MIDI editing in the Sequence Editor. Just wondering why when I, for example, drag a MIDI pattern from my third party drum sequencer to a MIDI channel in the Sequence Editor, I see 'accent marks' with no actual 'region'? Is it possible to create a MIDI 'region' whereby I can edit the region like I would an audio track? This would make life much easier for me.

I hope this question makes sense.

Thanks.

[stubbsonic]

When you drag a pattern from your 3rd party drum sequencer, is this unnamed software supposed to export a Standard MIDI file with this method? Some do (maybe most?).

If so, are you seeing notes in the Tracks overview?

I don't know what "accent marks" look like. And I don't know what you might be expecting to see.

DP doesn't do regions in the same way other DAW's do.

If you are seeing notes, then you can select (through very flexible means) the notes & time range that you want, and that is the region for the moment.

We've had some threads lately about this topic. People who use and love DP like that regions aren't so rigidly defined, and are very used to working in this way. Those for whom that type of region is part of their workflow, need to go through some transition.

[Shooshie]

DP does regions in the Tracks Overview window. You can set the parameters for how it parses a region. Read those parameters carefully in the Preferences under Tracks Overview.

Now, the fundamental difference in this regard between Logic and DP is that in DP we work with Selections. We have commands to create selections from many sources, and we have commands to use selections as the basis for many destinations (like Auto-Record, playback memory stop & rewind). It pays to study the Commands Window (SHIFT-L), searching for strings like Memory, Select, Counter, Play, Move, and other words you'll come across as you read about those.

We use temporary groups (W for grouping all visible tracks, T for grouping selected tracks, tap either one to create a semi-permanent group). There is a "Search" command in which you can build up a set of saved searches that can find complex selections quickly using Boolean algorithms. We use various windows interchangeably to get the best or fastest operations on those selections.

You can maintain a selection for a long, long time if you're careful.

Read the 2nd page of the DP Tips Sheet:

• Control Point Editing in DP:
  • Control point editing in DP's MIDI Edit Window
  Working with Selections in DP:
  • Working with Selections in DP

These may help you learn more about selections and editing.

The short answer: the Tracks Overview Window does regions, but not like Logic does them. Learn to achieve and maintain selections. (Keep that finger on the Shift Key)

Also, note that because Apple has changed their key functions, MOTU has followed suit in lists, but not in data. If you want to select multiple objects, you use the COMMAND key in a list such as track names. If you want to select multiple notes or other MIDI events, use the SHIFT key. To change it at this point would throw off too many keyboard commands, so we get used to using either, depending on the context or circumstances. In lists, SHIFT selects ranges. COMMAND selects individual list items. But in MIDI, Command does not add or subtract to a selection. Only SHIFT does that.

Shooshie

[deckard1]

Thanks for the above informative responses. Still debating whether the change to DP8 from Logic is worth it, given my original post and the fact that there is no 'solution'. Unless I am missing something.

Thanks again.

[Robert Randolph]

Thanks for the above informative responses. Still debating whether the change to DP8 from Logic is worth it, given my original post and the fact that there is no 'solution'. Unless I am missing something.

Thanks again.

I'm having difficulty understanding your problem. I've read your post, and I can at least understand why Shooshie's response might not help (even though it is very good info). What I can't understand is exactly what the issue is. I almost feel like this is an XY problem. You have a problem, but you already decided what the solution is, so you are asking about the solution rather than presenting the problem. (http://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem).

Is it that when you drag stuff from your drum sequencer, that you're unable to edit it after?

Is it that you want to maintain the 'drum sequence' as it's own entity as you edit?

Maybe another issue?

[deckard1]

Is it that when you drag stuff from your drum sequencer, that you're unable to edit it after?

Is it that you want to maintain the 'drum sequence' as it's own entity as you edit?

This! I couldn't have said it better myself. What do I do?

Thanks.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

At the risk of being overly simplistic (I never really unsderstood the whole region problem as selections work for me) but are you dragging the drum stuff to it's own track? If you combine it with another track, it could be problematic in selecting the importing material again. If you drag it to a new, empty track, you can select just that info. You can assign multiple tracks to the same VI or output, so you're not loosing anything there and you can place those tracks (or any combination of tracks in folders and nested folders, so you can keep stuff organized across many tracks.

Again, I may be misunderstanding the issue here. Also, the Sequence Editor is not the best place to edit MIDI. The MIDI Editor (piano roll) is the best place to do that. You can use the Track Selector to hide of show various tracks and color code the tracks so you know what is going on. Region Commands only apply to what is currently selected.

[Robert Randolph]

Is it that when you drag stuff from your drum sequencer, that you're unable to edit it after?

Is it that you want to maintain the 'drum sequence' as it's own entity as you edit?

This! I couldn't have said it better myself. What do I do?

Thanks.

Ok for "Is it that when you drag stuff from your drum sequencer, that you're unable to edit it after?". First check that you are scrolled to the correct position in your MIDI track. To the left of the horizontal piano graphic there is a scrollbar that allows you to move around the track vertically. It sounds like you are seeing the note-on/offs and not the 'notes'.

If that isn't it, could you download the program 'Licecap' and use it to make a very short graphic of you dragging the phrase to DP and showing what happens?

For the second thing, "Is it that you want to maintain the 'drum sequence' as it's own entity as you edit?" I suggest treating tracks and selections (see Shooshie's post) as your main categorical marker. If you have an entity that you wish to keep segregated, then create a new track for it. Maintain the organization of individual 'sections' using selections. It seems weird at first, but it really is a much more powerful way to work.

I also would like to have regions, since they can definitely be quicker for simple things. The selection recall features in DP, along with excellent track management features allow for the 'new track and recall selection' workflow to be very effective. Make sure that you're familiar with using the tracks list, track overview window and zoom functions, and this becomes much easier to work with.

[deckard1]

At the risk of being overly simplistic (I never really unsderstood the whole region problem as selections work for me) but are you dragging the drum stuff to it's own track? If you combine it with another track, it could be problematic in selecting the importing material again. If you drag it to a new, empty track, you can select just that info. You can assign multiple tracks to the same VI or output, so you're not loosing anything there and you can place those tracks (or any combination of tracks in folders and nested folders, so you can keep stuff organized across many tracks.

Again, I may be misunderstanding the issue here. Also, the Sequence Editor is not the best place to edit MIDI. The MIDI Editor (piano roll) is the best place to do that. You can use the Track Selector to hide of show various tracks and color code the tracks so you know what is going on. Region Commands only apply to what is currently selected.

Simplicity is good.

I am dragging the MIDI drum pattern to it's own MIDI track within the Sequence window with the hope of further editing the pattern within the same window. The Track window is too cumbersome for me to do simple editing (e.g. copy/paste, etc.) as the regions don't line up properly. Looks like the simple solution is to open the MIDI Editor window immediately below the Sequence window.

At the risk of sounding presumptuous, wouldn't it make more sense to consolidate the Track window and Sequence window into one window? I am still trying to figure this one out.

Many thanks.

[deckard1]

Ok for "Is it that when you drag stuff from your drum sequencer, that you're unable to edit it after?". First check that you are scrolled to the correct position in your MIDI track. To the left of the horizontal piano graphic there is a scrollbar that allows you to move around the track vertically. It sounds like you are seeing the note-on/offs and not the 'notes'.

If that isn't it, could you download the program 'Licecap' and use it to make a very short graphic of you dragging the phrase to DP and showing what happens?

For the second thing, "Is it that you want to maintain the 'drum sequence' as it's own entity as you edit?" I suggest treating tracks and selections (see Shooshie's post) as your main categorical marker. If you have an entity that you wish to keep segregated, then create a new track for it. Maintain the organization of individual 'sections' using selections. It seems weird at first, but it really is a much more powerful way to work.

I also would like to have regions, since they can definitely be quicker for simple things. The selection recall features in DP, along with excellent track management features allow for the 'new track and recall selection' workflow to be very effective. Make sure that you're familiar with using the tracks list, track overview window and zoom functions, and this becomes much easier to work with.

This is great! Thank you!

[Robert Randolph]

At the risk of sounding presumptuous, wouldn't it make more sense to consolidate the Track window and Sequence window into one window? I am still trying to figure this one out.

I used to think the exact same thing. I then went through the manual for the Tracks Overview window and simply tried everything as I read. Did the same for the Sequence window. Took about 45 minutes.

It was at that point that I realized it would be rather annoying to have the functionality of both in the same space. Another thing is that it's called the Tracks Overview window... That realization helped me a lot too.

Pretty much I spend 90% of my time in Tracks Overview (think of it as a 'sequence management space'), and only open the Sequence window for fine editing. This means that I'm always using the side panels for the event list, information windows and channel strip. I've really grown to prefer this way of working.

If you're working with MIDI, do not underestimate how AWESOME the search tool is in conjunction with the event list and track selector.

[deckard1]

Thanks for everything. I think the hardest thing is 'unlearning' my workflow from Logic after so many years. I was discussing this with Magic Dave as well. I think it would be a lot easier if I was starting from the beginning with DP being my first DAW. One thing I have learned about DP that didn't really apply to Logic is the importance of reading the manual. Sounds ridiculous, but very true nonetheless.


Thanks

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Valid point. Frankly, I HATED DP (actually it was Performer at the time) when I first got it. Didn't use it for years but SVP was waning under Gibson and when it went belly up, DP was the next logical choice. Still detest Pro Tools.

But after a few projects and the loss of half my hair, I finally got the workflow in DP and find very intuitive - as long as I was willing to change my Rx... I do think it's well worth the effort, but in the end, it's all about what you are most comfortable with and which DAW does what you need.

[Shooshie]

Thanks for everything. I think the hardest thing is 'unlearning' my workflow from Logic after so many years. I was discussing this with Magic Dave as well. I think it would be a lot easier if I was starting from the beginning with DP being my first DAW. One thing I have learned about DP that didn't really apply to Logic is the importance of reading the manual. Sounds ridiculous, but very true nonetheless.


Thanks

Unlearning another app is indeed the hardest part of working in a new one. When I learned Logic, I tried to approach with an open mind, realizing that everything was going to be different. I did learn to use it, but there were just too many things that I could do better, faster, in DP. Some of those things were not due to my prior bias, but simply because those particular things were designed and implemented better in DP. Some not.

Yes, the manual is your friend. Another thing that helps me a great deal is to print out the COMMANDS window. It can take close to 30 pages. Make a PDF as well as a hard copy. Just reading over those commands can give you great ideas for workflows you may never think of without seeing what's available.

Then there is the DP Tips Sheet. I apologize for the poor organization. The forum is not a database, so all I can do is edit the messages, appending each tip to the list as I get around to it. (That also takes an enormous amount of time that I don't have!) But I've given you hooks that help to find things. For example, you can search for "recording," and then hit COMMAND-G to advance to each tip about recording. Or "Tracks Overview" might be a good place for you to start.

Lastly, the Tracks Overview Window DOES do regions, though not the same way that Logic does them. You can control how they are parsed in Preferences, and you can make them any length. I usually leave them at 8 bars, though that can change depending on what I'm doing. Using the Command-key to turn off the grid, you can select even down to a particular note in the Tracks Overview, or select by grid, range, or region. When you learn it, the TO window is incredibly helpful.

One last thing: note that when you are selecting in the TO window, if your cursor is at the TOP of a cell, you get a range selector [+]. Elsewhere in the cell you get a pointer which selects the cell or region. The selection methods are nuanced, so there are several ways of getting what you want.

Shooshie

[bayswater]

Thanks for everything. I think the hardest thing is 'unlearning' my workflow from Logic after so many years.

I agree. Learning Logic after Cubase and DP presents similar challenges. I've found two things help keep many things clear: First, in Logic I have to keep in mind that tracks and channel strips are quite different things, and second, Logic is, if anything region based rather than track based. Under the hood, DP has tracks and channel strips too, but you can think of them as more or less the same thing, or at least more simply connected, and instead of regions, think of selections. Logic: event in regions in tracks routed to channel strips. DP: events in tracks.

I also find it helpful to think about traditional analog signal flow to understand what DP is doing when it comes to busses, VIs, V-Racks, mute, solo, etc. That never fails. Ironically, I've never seen an attempt to draw DP's signal flow, while many have attempted it with Logic, (maybe because the authors can't otherwise figure out what Logic is doing)