Comping and muting the previous take during new punch take

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Tritonemusic
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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by Tritonemusic »

Guitar Gaz wrote:
bayswater wrote:The manual says it's different because you can overdub on the current take. That sounds like a physical impossibility to me.
Actually, it really does do that if you set it up that way.
....not sure I would want to - again just record on another track....[/quote]

I agree, but still wanted to mention it.

However, I do occasionally use POLAR and love it when I do use it. It's still different than any other way of working in DP. It's lightning fast and doesn't even tax the hard drive. I guess I'll just leave it at that...people are either going to like POLAR or not.
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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by BKK-OZ »

Guitar Gaz wrote:Cycle record in overdub is one of the best things in DP and I have been using this for years on vocals and guitar overdubs. In fact it makes Polar redundant...
I sometimes use Polar as one would use a looper live. The good thing about Polar is that you can set it so that you can hear the accumulation of previous takes - perfect if you are after a looping build-up.

I wish that you could have multiple inputs going into Polar, or that cycle record would let you hear the accumulation of previous takes, like you get with a looping fx.
Cheers,
BK

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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by Tritonemusic »

BKK-OZ wrote:I sometimes use Polar as one would use a looper live. The good thing about Polar is that you can set it so that you can hear the accumulation of previous takes - perfect if you are after a looping build-up.
I completely forgot that I've done that live before (on guitar). It never failed me, either. So, POLAR definitely has its advantages. If you're just doing that sort of thing live, there's no reason to create new tracks every time the phrase loops. Just layer away and make the audience happy.
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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by EMRR »

You want to punch in so you can work quickly, the client only has a nickel, not a dime. You want to punch in because you are brave enough to assume you and artist are doing the right thing, willing to commit, ready to move on without dicking around another precious 30 seconds with some BS like editing or comping. Like real men used to do it. It's all editable if you have to anyway, so why wouldn't you be daring and decisive?

I have a singer lately who tracks 3 grouped inputs on the way in, lots of processing on them that he wants to hear at all times, and he frequently wants to hear exactly what existed previously while changing one word here and there. There's no time or patience for comping that in, it blows the entire work flow. In response to said singer, I see a need for the ability to define a stretch of time, and do take layers within a specific time frame, all else remaining the same take. How's that for entropy?
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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by sampolfonz »

Folks,

Thanks for all of this, but back to my original question and the context of the question.

I record a vocal pass on the audio track. I want to keep that audio track, but maybe do a second take. I want to do a second take because the singer might give me something better the 2nd time.

Alright, 2nd take is completed. Singer did give me better take second time with the exception of one phrase. Instead of committing to the take as final and promoting to the track (comp), I want to fix the phrase in the take lane. After all, DP does offer record as an option for the takes. When I set up the right and left locators, the next take is recorded on another take lane, however during the punch in the portion of audio to be recorded over does not "mute" out. It stays on. When this task is done using the top track lane, punch in...the punched portion area (between let and right locators) mutes out.

My original request, which I had a conversation with Travis at Motu on Friday about, is not possible. The only way for the portion in the area of punch in-punch out is for the area to be on the main track and not a sub layer (take).

I feel this should be a function regardless of what lane you are working on. To answer a question, this function is possible in Logic, Cubase and Studio One Pro, but I don't want to start a DAW debate, I'm only answering a question asked of me.

Lots of good here in DP; love how it sounds, handles, just want to change the functionality of the punch/take setup when viewed in comparison to others and the ease of use.

Sam
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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by Shooshie »

sampolfonz wrote:Folks,

Thanks for all of this, but back to my original question and the context of the question.

I record a vocal pass on the audio track. I want to keep that audio track, but maybe do a second take. I want to do a second take because the singer might give me something better the 2nd time.

Alright, 2nd take is completed. Singer did give me better take second time with the exception of one phrase. Instead of committing to the take as final and promoting to the track (comp), I want to fix the phrase in the take lane. After all, DP does offer record as an option for the takes. When I set up the right and left locators, the next take is recorded on another take lane, however during the punch in the portion of audio to be recorded over does not "mute" out. It stays on. When this task is done using the top track lane, punch in...the punched portion area (between let and right locators) mutes out.

My original request, which I had a conversation with Travis at Motu on Friday about, is not possible. The only way for the portion in the area of punch in-punch out is for the area to be on the main track and not a sub layer (take).

I feel this should be a function regardless of what lane you are working on. To answer a question, this function is possible in Logic, Cubase and Studio One Pro, but I don't want to start a DAW debate, I'm only answering a question asked of me.

Lots of good here in DP; love how it sounds, handles, just want to change the functionality of the punch/take setup when viewed in comparison to others and the ease of use.

Sam
You're in Comp mode, with all the takes showing, and you want to do a punch-in recording in one of those comp-lanes (let's say take 3). Is that correct? In doing so, you find that the top lane, take 1, keeps playing while you are punching-into take 3. That's because when you show takes, they all become tracks. Even though you're able to comp them into a single track, they are individual tracks. So when you punch-in to take 3, only take three is muted. The comp track (top lane) is still heard all the way through, because it's a separate track.

Your options are:
1) Turn off the comp tool and comp track, and just play back and punch-record in take 3.
2) Hide takes, switch to Take 3, then punch-in what you want. Show takes again afterward.
3) Finish comping, THEN punch in the desired section after you have hidden the takes again. I think this is the way to go. You can always go back to recording new takes and comping. At least... I think you can.

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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by Shooshie »

EMRR wrote:You want to punch in so you can work quickly, the client only has a nickel, not a dime. You want to punch in because you are brave enough to assume you and artist are doing the right thing, willing to commit, ready to move on without dicking around another precious 30 seconds with some BS like editing or comping. Like real men used to do it. It's all editable if you have to anyway, so why wouldn't you be daring and decisive?

I have a singer lately who tracks 3 grouped inputs on the way in, lots of processing on them that he wants to hear at all times, and he frequently wants to hear exactly what existed previously while changing one word here and there. There's no time or patience for comping that in, it blows the entire work flow. In response to said singer, I see a need for the ability to define a stretch of time, and do take layers within a specific time frame, all else remaining the same take. How's that for entropy?
I can see ways to do that fairly quickly, using keyboard commands and doing some things you probably wouldn't want to do. But I could probably do it without losing the patience of your attention-deprived artist. With keyboard commands it happens so quickly. In a nutshell, you select, split, create similar track(s), move tracks together (one command), drag soundbite(s) to new track(s). (use T-T-T to create semi-temporary group for the three new similar tracks), put selection range in punch-in range (it's a command, too), create new takes, auto-record (aka "punch-in" to us real men)

You've got the multiple takes in a separate track, compable among themselves, with the original track still there, but with a gap in it. When you choose a comp version of the punch-ins, you can drag that back into the original. It should fit exactly.

I can give you detailed instructions and keyboard commands. I actually know those commands. I just tried it, and the whole thing took about 5 seconds before I was ready to do a take. It's just a series of commands and a shift-drag, plus creating a take. But it looks and sounds complicated if you're not the one doing it.

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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by EMRR »

Thanks Shooshie. My ninja key commands aren't that evolved, it just doesn't come up quite enough to stick yet. I'll try it out. Seems to be more and more common a request.

I do vastly prefer to make concrete decisions and cut out the middle man as much a possible, banish options quickly. That gets much more mileage out of a low budget record, conserving editing resources for work on the bigger picture downstream.
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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by sampolfonz »

Shooshie,

Thank you, sir. Yes, please send the process and commands.

I work in DP because I like how it sounds and the cool ways the consolidated window allows me to see side panes and stuff.

I read through your options for me and I guess what I want to do is be able to keep each take intact and have each new take recorded as another take under the existings so I can have option for best take for the comps. If I pulled the comps to the main track lane and did the punch, it would block out the original part of the take that might want to have for later. Still your way of looking at it with promoting the takes to the lane is probably the best option. I would just use tracks but dragging audio from one track to another seems dangerous as the timing position isn't constrained when moving from track to track in sequence editor, or is it?

Hear me out for a moment. My primary daw over the years has been Cubase, but I purchased DP in 2004 or 2005 and have been using them both ever since. However, I have DP issues with a situation, weekly recording that forces me to stay with Cubase (at least for this weekly task). I have 8 tracks in a track folder, six tracks in another track folder and 3 tracks in no folders. While the transport is running, I can click the record button on the folder, disengaging all tracks from record inside the folder without a hitch. The top three tracks continue to record without issue and the transport keeps running without a hickup. I record a church service and I keep an auditorium mic track, direct sum from the board and the pastor's mic, recording continuous for the hour long service. The band and singers ( 2 different folder tracks) can be selected when we want to record them. When trying to accomplish this in DP with the transport moving, DP gives me the spinning beach ball (and you can't even do record from folder track) and then finally disengages the tracks, one at a time though is how I have to do it.

So, while I like mixing in DP better, enjoy the audio quality from DP more too, I am forced to use Cubase for this task. I put in a feature request but haven't heard that it is something they are looking at.

Studio One also allows folder track control and transport keeps going without missing a beat, the audio sound of the program is not as quality as DP or Cubase.

I probably should have put this post into a new thread, but I thought a few of the guys were listening here so I thought I'd get it all out here. Everyone is kind to respond to me.

Thanks,

Sam
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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by sampolfonz »

Correction, come to think of it, you can't disengage a track from record mode in DP with the transport running.

Sorry about my error and misstatement.

Sam
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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by sampolfonz »

Shooshie,

Could you post that series of commands?

Thanks,

Sam
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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by Shooshie »

sampolfonz wrote:Shooshie,

Could you post that series of commands?

Thanks,

Sam
The commands I offered to post were for the problem that EMRR described. It's not the same as yours, at least I don't think it was. I'd have to go back and read both again to even remember what it was about. If you're asking me to post the commands for the problem that Doug (EMRR) described, I can do that, but I warn that it seems more complicated than it is. It didn't take me long to do what I did. But the reason I didn't post it then was because Doug suggested that his client didn't wanted everything immediately, without delay, not wanting to have to wait on Doug to do what is necessary. The condition being that Doug has got to be able to do a punch-in of just a word or phrase, using the 1st take as his lead-in, then punching in the new take, as many times as he wants, then hearing the alternate takes back, one-after-the-other, in place with take 1.

So, what he's asking for is a combination of being able to punch-in, and being able to do multiple takes of the punch-in, while never leaving take 1. In other words, the client wants to have his cake and eat it, too. Magic.

I can almost give that to him, but it requires quick work, knowing your commands, and moving fast. There is no time for hesitation if this is to work as the client wants it.

Of course, a better option is to tell the client to grow a pair, learn to deal with reality, wait on the engineer to do his job, quit being impatient, and act like a man, not a spoiled brat.

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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by Shooshie »

This is in response to Samplefonz, who asked that I post the commands for EMRR's dilemma. I''m not saying this is ideal. Just that it's a way to do it.
EMRR wrote:In response to said singer, I see a need for the ability to define a stretch of time, and do take layers within a specific time frame, all else remaining the same take.
Ok, let me see if I get this right. You want to be able to set your punch-in range, then get multiple takes for that punch-in which you'll later comp the best take into the track, while the rest of the track remains in Take 1. Is that right?
  • • You can't just create a new take, because that robs you of your reference track (take 1) which you were going to use to do the punch-in.
    • You can't just do punch-ins, because that doesn't give you multiple takes to choose from and comp together into a final track.
    • You need a way to remove that word or phrase ("define a stretch of time"), record multiple takes for that stretch of time, then play it back, immediately being able to audition the takes in that one little stretch. You may need to do it in several places.
So, here's a method. Not ideal, but usable. The first time will be a little more involved than subsequent edits later in the song.

This will require a combination of using multiple tracks and multiple takes. First, you should have the 3 vocal tracks grouped. I think you said that they are grouped, but if not, group them. It takes a moment before you begin a session, but part of your template setup should be to have these vocal recording tracks grouped so that everything you do to one of them, you do to all three of them. I usually record vocals with three mics, too, so I'm familiar with the setup. Set your group to include selections, moving, record enable, input monitor, show-hide takes, take comping, new takes, and so forth. Let's assume that you've already got this working as you want it. That means you'll save a lot of time when doing things like this, because you only do each step once, but it will happen to all three tracks. So, we'll start numbering the steps now:
  • 1) Select the word or phrase over which you want to punch-in new takes. You should see your selection in three tracks, because they are grouped.
    2) Hit CONTROL-COMMAND-S, which will create three new similar tracks, identical in every way but the data and name. Don't bother to name them right now. They're temporary.
    3) Hit CONTROL-OPTION-HOME. This moves your three original tracks back together, above the three new tracks you created.
    4) Your selection is still there. Hit COMMAND-Y. This snips the three audio tracks at the boundaries of the selection, turning your selection into soundbites exactly in the punch-in range.
    5) Grab the 3 soundbites you just split from the 3 original tracks and SHIFT-DRAG them down to the 3 new tracks.
    6) Hit CONTROL-SHIFT-OPTION-R. This takes your selection (still there, unless you clicked somewhere) and puts it in Auto-Record. (that's "punch-in" to us real men)
    7) You still should have your selection of the three short soundbites of the word or phrase. (If not, select them) Tap the T-KEY 3 times to group your three selected tracks. As long as they stay selected, whatever you do to one will happen to all three.
    8 ) Choose "New Take" from the menu in the Sequence Editor, for one of the selected tracks. You should now have three empty takes, with Auto-Record selected, your punch-in range set, and the original audio tracks still in Take one ready to playback while you do a punch-in recording on the new blank takes. If you know the keyboard commands, this will have taken less than 10 seconds.
    9) Record your punch-in. Repeat steps 8 & 9 as often as needed.
At this point you've got the new takes. Ideally, you would take the time to permanently group these three tracks, but you can do it with the temporary group in the selected tracks. Later, you show takes, choose the Comp tool, and proceed to let the artist hear that phrase over and over, each time with a different take of "the word," clicking on the alternate takes with the comp tool. When you find the take you like, you have the option of shift-dragging it back into the original track or using it where it is.

Ok, that SEEMS like a complicated process, and I won't deny that a lot is happening, but with the keyboard commands it goes very, very fast. That's how THIS real man would do it. But I also eat quiche. There may be an easier way to do it which I am not seeing at the moment. In fact, I can think of ways to make it less-involved, but you probably can, too.

Feel free to ask MOTU for a command that does all this, but I'm a little skeptical that they'll actually do it.

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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by EMRR »

Thanks! I will go through this and give it a try.
In other words, the client wants to have his cake and eat it, too. Magic.

Of course, a better option is to tell the client to grow a pair, learn to deal with reality
Yeah, really. This particular case I'm dubbing a 'sonic literalist'. No ability to imagine anything in that realm, while imagining all sorts of things outside of his own performance. Takes all types....


My other semi-related gripe is the loss of 'direct hardware playthrough' using the new AVB interfaces. Being in analog world requires switching of 'audio patch thru' settings dependent on the job at hand along with careful input submixing in the AVB app mixer. Harder, not easier than it was with the PCIe line.
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Tape Op issue 73

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Re: Comping and muting the previous take during new punch ta

Post by sampolfonz »

Shoshie,

A thousand thank yous, my DP brother. Your tips and suggestions in this post have helped me understand the take and comping system. This has been one of those "duh" moments. I didn't ever think of the concept of promoting whatever take lane I wanted to work on, to the top track lane, then put it back down, grab the comp I wanna work on and then work. Brilliant !!!

I have been back and forth with 4 DAWs, trying to get to one that serves my needs and styles best. This help you have given me will make my work flow in DP much more efficient.

There is one feature I wish Motu would implement: grouping of soundbites. DP allows track grouping and being able to select the soundbites and keep them in a group would be of great benefit in certain circumstances.

Anyway, working with a singer now and the understanding you have helped me gain is making things flow much better for me today.

Thanks again, my friend.

Sam
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