MAS version of VEPro pulled. Going back into beta

[Steve Steele]

From Paul at VSL:

"We have decided to pull VE PRO from MyDownloads and roll back to the previous version until we have fixed the AU/MAS confusion (working on it with high pressure, and it is looking good).

If you´d like to roll back, please use the VE PRO Uninstaller, this way the MAS plug-in will be completely removed.
I will let you know as soon as the update is available!"

Some further explanation from Paul... "I thought I´d keep you in the loop, this is the current situation we´re facing: DP forces the use of MAS over AU even in an AU saved project, so it will not be able to load the data.

In other words: MAS automatically overrides AU, resulting in project data incompatibility. A project saved with VE PRO AU should be loaded with the MAS plugin version disabled.

The best way to migrate existing songs is to disable the MAS plugin in DP, load the project, preserve the instances, reload the project with MAS plugin enabled again, then reconnect the VE PRO instances.

Of course if the instances are already preserved (which we assume will be the case with most songs), reconnecting the individual VE PRO plugins will do the trick.

We´re in touch with MOTU and hope that we can find a better solution for migration. "

Source: http://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/m2 ... post235668

I've had no problems, but it's good to see VSL and MOTU working so hard together. Maybe this is a rebirth for MAS. The timing is perfect. Developers are upset with the AU spec and lack of documentation, and then the VST3 issues. MAS is now cross-platform correct?

Maybe now is a good time to email your favorite developer and plead our case for MAS development. I plan on contacting Steven Slate personally. They've been through it with AAX. But now that that's done, why not MAS?

Keep it positive!

[Michael Canavan]

I've had no problems, but it's good to see VSL and MOTU working so hard together. Maybe this is a rebirth for MAS. The timing is perfect. Developers are upset with the AU spec and lack of documentation, and then the VST3 issues. MAS is now cross-platform correct?

Maybe now is a good time to email your favorite developer and plead our case for MAS development. I plan on contacting Steven Slate personally. They've been through it with AAX. But now that that's done, why not MAS?

Keep it positive!

A couple things, developers aren't upset with the AU spec because of lack of documentation, host developers have a hard time with VST spec when it comes to hosting, since Steinberg don't have as good of VST hosting documentation available as they do VST plug in doc. Mostly developers were/are upset with AU because it was/is another bunch of work they have to do for another plug in format. Plug in developers would love it if VST was a universal standard, and they didn't have to take their same code and make it into a VST, AU, and AAX plug in. AU spec is actually really well documented, Apple got that part right. One of the more popular plug in developers U-He started coding AU only plug ins because for a new developer AU was much easier to get into than VST etc.
MAS, DP is the only DAW that runs MAS, so developers coding for MAS specifically is something I think is a very cool thing to do for sure, but I cannot think of a good reason to ask for it if the plug in is working fine as an AU. The delayed time it takes for most plug in developers to come up with the AAX version of their product is a good indication of what a pain it is to learn and code in one format for two platforms that works in only one DAW; as opposed to AU which has good hosting support and works in one platform for a half dozen DAWs; or VST for two platforms and dozens of DAWs. Think of the shear amount of work debugging these "three" formats creates, and none of this has much to do with the creative part of coding, it's relentlessly technical and has to be frustrating that there's no standard...

Enter MAS, another format that works only in one host. With all this in mind I'm happy that developers that find there's issues with AU or VST in DP have decided to pursue MAS, it's a level of commitment to DP that's very much appreciated.
There are downsides though. Audio Ease develops a MAS plug in for Speakerphone, for the most part that pretty cool, but MAS isn't a supported format for Automap, and MAS automatically loads whether you prefer to use the VST AU or not. What this means is that I can map all my plug ins to hardware elegantly, but Speakerphone won't play ball.

Mostly I think if it works as a VST or AU, then what is the advantage? Another set of code means developers will be working slower, there really isn't any way around that.

[Steve Steele]

A couple things, developers aren't upset with the AU spec because of lack of documentation, host developers have a hard time with VST spec when it comes to hosting, since Steinberg don't have as good of VST hosting documentation available as they do VST plug in doc. Mostly developers were/are upset with AU because it was/is another bunch of work they have to do for another plug in format.

I was following the U-he forum for awhile and talked to other developers recently. They all say one thing about Apple and AU. They say the communication is bad and they don't know what Apple's plans for AU are in the future. Have you seen the AU portion on Apple's developer website? It's crickets. The number of changes made to AU since its inception (whether that's fixes or development) can be counted on one hand.

Plug in developers would love it if VST was a universal standard, and they didn't have to take their same code and make it into a VST, AU, and AAX plug in. AU spec is actually really well documented, Apple got that part right. One of the more popular plug in developers U-He started coding AU only plug ins because for a new developer AU was much easier to get into than VST etc.

And he gave up on VST3 last I saw.

MAS, DP is the only DAW that runs MAS, so developers coding for MAS specifically is something I think is a very cool thing to do for sure, but I cannot think of a good reason to ask for it if the plug in is working fine as an AU.

Because I think the future of AU and CoreAudio is in doubt. It may not seem like it's going away anytime soon, but if Apple gets out of the MacPro market (which almost happened supposedly), it's goodbye OSX as a mainstream high end audio solution. Ready for Audiobus?

The delayed time it takes for most plug in developers to come up with the AAX version of their product is a good indication of what a pain it is to learn and code in one format for two platforms that works in only one DAW; as opposed to AU which has good hosting support and works in one platform for a half dozen DAWs; or VST for two platforms and dozens of DAWs. Think of the shear amount of work debugging these "three" formats creates, and none of this has much to do with the creative part of coding, it's relentlessly technical and has to be frustrating that there's no standard...

Enter MAS, another format that works only in one host.

Yeah. That is a problem alright. At least we have two highly regarded developers in Audio Ease and Vienna. Still, that's so small to be nothing. And really there is no reason to write for MAS other than in certain situations where a developer has a good number of DP clients to keep happy and the alternative is unfair (VEP).

With all this in mind I'm happy that developers that find there's issues with AU or VST in DP have decided to pursue MAS, it's a level of commitment to DP that's very much appreciated.

Indeed. What other developer has a large number of DP users where AU is a limiting factor? I don't know currently.

There are downsides though. Audio Ease develops a MAS plug in for Speakerphone, for the most part that pretty cool, but MAS isn't a supported format for Automap, and MAS automatically loads whether you prefer to use the VST AU or not. What this means is that I can map all my plug ins to hardware elegantly, but Speakerphone won't play ball.

I did not know this. In fact I've been wanting to learn more about the pros and cons of MAS. It's something I've never had to think much about. 32 MIDI ports is great. No Automap, ok not so great. AudioEase was one of those early Mac only developers when DP was king. Makes sense they developed for MAS.

Mostly I think if it works as a VST or AU, then what is the advantage? Another set of code means developers will be working slower, there really isn't any way around that.

I get it. There's only room for three formats. A native format for Windows, a native format for OSX, and a Pro Tools format.

But things have changed before and they'll change again. What if Apple exits the pro market (God forbid), and a Linux Android desktop rises up quickly to take its place. Let's say that company looks around and decides MOTU is in the right audio company to base it's technology on. It happens. Remember Opcode, Gigastudio, Direct X, Audio Suite, Live, Reason, etc... MAS has been around for so long (mainly dormat as a single DAW's native format), but still who knows the landscape in five years.

I don't know exactly what broke between VEP and MAS other than what I read but hopefully it's something that will improove MAS when fixed. And if DP9 gains some ground in the Windows world, gets a few small and big name developers to code for it, maybe other DAWs will adopt it someday if AU or VST3 have or continue to have issues. Long shot I know.

I don't want to be an evangelist for MOTU, but the more they work with 3rd parties, or the more MOTU technology gets adopted, the better it will be for DP users. Cubase is a example. It's always been a popular DAW, but VST cemented it as the Windows champ. Now look at some of the cool tech finding it's way into Cubase. The Cubase Club (I believe it's called), where musicians can do remote sessions inside Cubase. That's going to be huge I believe. I wish DP had that. Note Expressions. Not a big deal but so many companies are making special Note Expression sets for their software. It wound be nice if DP had that.

Anyway, I ramble. I really enjoy using DP everyday. I want more power!!

Good day

[Michael Canavan]

I was following the U-he forum for awhile and talked to other developers recently. They all say one thing about Apple and AU. They say the communication is bad and they don't know what Apple's plans for AU are in the future. Have you seen the AU portion on Apple's developer website? It's crickets. The number of changes made to AU since its inception (whether that's fixes or development) can be counted on one hand.

That AU hasn't had any recent upgrades in no way means it's going away. Logic X seems to be well received and it was widely reported that Emagic (Logic developer company name before Apple bought them), were extremely pleased to not have to use VST anymore. I sincerely think the AU is dead thing is a Chicken Little story.

Plug in developers would love it if VST was a universal standard, and they didn't have to take their same code and make it into a VST, AU, and AAX plug in. AU spec is actually really well documented, Apple got that part right. One of the more popular plug in developers U-He started coding AU only plug ins because for a new developer AU was much easier to get into than VST etc.

And he gave up on VST3 last I saw.

This goes back to why AU hasn't changed, developers are pretty happy where they are, VST 3 as a host plug in format is not widely implemented, this means not much impetus to develop for a format that people aren't currently using. Two examples of DAWs that just came out with VST support that didn't include VST3 support: DP8 and Bitwig Studio. Doesn't make it a high priority format to develop for. IMO this is why there are cobwebs on the AU change logs, why implement something new that no one codes for?

Because I think the future of AU and CoreAudio is in doubt. It may not seem like it's going away anytime soon, but if Apple gets out of the MacPro market (which almost happened supposedly), it's goodbye OSX as a mainstream high end audio solution. Ready for Audiobus?

Again, I don't see it. Even if Apple got out of the Mac Pro Market, the latest iMacs are ridiculously powerful machines. Hell the Mac minis are. When we talk about big sample library hosting we're usually talking about a slave machine running VEP, the host could be anything really.

and again, Logic is a pro DAW, used by many, it's not going anywhere. It's still one of the best selling apps in the App store, in the top ten along with Final Cut Pro and Apple Server. That really would be about the oddest thing for a company to do wouldn't it? Multi billion dollar company, goo d percentage of mac sales, good percentage of apps they make that sell well are pro level apps, and they dump it because they sell phones...

I get it. There's only room for three formats. A native format for Windows, a native format for OSX, and a Pro Tools format.

My point was that the more formats people force developers to keep up code for the slower they go. It's bad enough already, plug ins would IMO be a lot cheaper if they only had one universal plug in format that worked in every DAW on Windows and OSX.

It's really cool that developers that have issues with AU like Vienna are doing a MAS version, since it ensures compatibility, but it wouldn't make any sense to have DP drop AU and VST in favor of MAS only, the fact they have multiple ways to implement a plug in allows developers to choose one if it's prudent.

An example. the updates to Air Music Tech plug ins just came out. I was shocked that the AU in Live is still wonky (white screen) but all VST bugs are crushed. Air coded obviously with VST in mind for Live. With DP it's the opposite, the AU version is now solid.


Even now really the problem is the two "universal" formats sometimes have issues in translation. Logic will always be the DAW that does the best with a 1.0 AU plug in and Cubase is always going to do best with a 1.0 VST plug in, but for 95% or more of the plug ins out there, even the 1.0 version will be fine in DP, Live, Bitwig, Sonar, Studio One etc.

[Steve Steele]

I was following the U-he forum for awhile and talked to other developers recently. They all say one thing about Apple and AU. They say the communication is bad and they don't know what Apple's plans for AU are in the future. Have you seen the AU portion on Apple's developer website? It's crickets. The number of changes made to AU since its inception (whether that's fixes or development) can be counted on one hand.

That AU hasn't had any recent upgrades in no way means it's going away. Logic X seems to be well received and it was widely reported that Emagic (Logic developer company name before Apple bought them), were extremely pleased to not have to use VST anymore. I sincerely think the AU is dead thing is a Chicken Little story.

Plug in developers would love it if VST was a universal standard, and they didn't have to take their same code and make it into a VST, AU, and AAX plug in. AU spec is actually really well documented, Apple got that part right. One of the more popular plug in developers U-He started coding AU only plug ins because for a new developer AU was much easier to get into than VST etc.

And he gave up on VST3 last I saw.

This goes back to why AU hasn't changed, developers are pretty happy where they are, VST 3 as a host plug in format is not widely implemented, this means not much impetus to develop for a format that people aren't currently using. Two examples of DAWs that just came out with VST support that didn't include VST3 support: DP8 and Bitwig Studio. Doesn't make it a high priority format to develop for. IMO this is why there are cobwebs on the AU change logs, why implement something new that no one codes for?

Because I think the future of AU and CoreAudio is in doubt. It may not seem like it's going away anytime soon, but if Apple gets out of the MacPro market (which almost happened supposedly), it's goodbye OSX as a mainstream high end audio solution. Ready for Audiobus?

Again, I don't see it. Even if Apple got out of the Mac Pro Market, the latest iMacs are ridiculously powerful machines. Hell the Mac minis are. When we talk about big sample library hosting we're usually talking about a slave machine running VEP, the host could be anything really.

and again, Logic is a pro DAW, used by many, it's not going anywhere. It's still one of the best selling apps in the App store, in the top ten along with Final Cut Pro and Apple Server. That really would be about the oddest thing for a company to do wouldn't it? Multi billion dollar company, goo d percentage of mac sales, good percentage of apps they make that sell well are pro level apps, and they dump it because they sell phones...

I get it. There's only room for three formats. A native format for Windows, a native format for OSX, and a Pro Tools format.

My point was that the more formats people force developers to keep up code for the slower they go. It's bad enough already, plug ins would IMO be a lot cheaper if they only had one universal plug in format that worked in every DAW on Windows and OSX.

It's really cool that developers that have issues with AU like Vienna are doing a MAS version, since it ensures compatibility, but it wouldn't make any sense to have DP drop AU and VST in favor of MAS only, the fact they have multiple ways to implement a plug in allows developers to choose one if it's prudent.

An example. the updates to Air Music Tech plug ins just came out. I was shocked that the AU in Live is still wonky (white screen) but all VST bugs are crushed. Air coded obviously with VST in mind for Live. With DP it's the opposite, the AU version is now solid.


Even now really the problem is the two "universal" formats sometimes have issues in translation. Logic will always be the DAW that does the best with a 1.0 AU plug in and Cubase is always going to do best with a 1.0 VST plug in, but for 95% or more of the plug ins out there, even the 1.0 version will be fine in DP, Live, Bitwig, Sonar, Studio One etc.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want OSX, AU development, work on the audio kernel or Logic to go away. My only concern is when my work and choice of tools are threatened by a company that seems more interested in making cars than improving the core of their operating system. I rely on DP and VEP everyday. AudioUnits in VEP isn't great. In fact it's not even very good. Vienna wisely saw the writing on the wall with DP using the AU version of VEP with the Event plugin and how sloppy it was. Apple could have added support for 32 MIDI ports, but they must not find it necessary. OSX was always going to be a slowish OS for multimedia due to the design of the kernel, but in recent years Microsoft, sadly, has been aggressive in optimizing it's audio kernel (mainly for gamers I suppose), but Apple has not. Steinberg has aggressively advanced VST3 on the Windows platform for its own DAW and, rightly so, running Cubase and VEP on a Windows PC is faster than running any DAW on OSX with AudioUnits and VEP. And where do the Emagic guys stand on this I wonder? (Btw, I used Logic for a minute back in the early 90s). Are they just happy that their DAW is the cute DAW that kids like to make dubstep on?

Why should I care? Because to use DP and VEP I have to use OSX and AUs. Well, now I don't have to because MOTU made a Windows version and much more importantly, Vienna has made a MAS version! I don't hate Apple. Actually I'm a big time Apple fanboy. But just the fact that Vienna did a MAS port says something (Apple isn't going to progress AUs). I'm sure VST3 is a big pain but at least Steinberg is taking the technology further. With Apple, not only do you not know what their plans are, you're not even sure if they have plans!

On the one hand you could make the point that AUs were the best thing that could have happened to DP. It's like MOTU got to go on that ride for free. But now we're kinda stuck with AUs and VST2. Two of the oldest plugin formats still in use (other than MAS ironically). But at least MAS, despite the drawbacks you mentioned, it's arguably potentially the best plugin format made for the Mac OS today. And it's in the hands of a company (MOTU) that given the chance, I feel based on their work overall, are the most capable of companies to manage a plugin format. Not everything Motu makes is gold, but most everything is.

Would you disagree with that? (I'm not referring to their stand alone VIs)

I hope I was able to get my point across. I would only use Windows if I had no other choice. AUs isn't a bad platform. It's just not a progressive one. Not sure if that's Apple's or Emagic's fault. It brought us a lot of great plugins that we may not have had the chance to use otherwise. But my main point is that I'm thrilled as punch that Vienna took it upon themselves to code a MAS version of VEP. And now they had the guts to pull the version and send it back to beta until they and MOTU could get it right. Damn, I admire that!

[Michael Canavan]

Don't get me wrong. I don't want OSX, AU development, work on the audio kernel or Logic to go away. My only concern is when my work and choice of tools are threatened by a company that seems more interested in making cars than improving the core of their operating system.

Seems is the operative term here. There have been tweaks to Core recently and Logic X did come out.

I rely on DP and VEP everyday. AudioUnits in VEP isn't great. In fact it's not even very good. Vienna wisely saw the writing on the wall with DP using the AU version of VEP with the Event plugin and how sloppy it was. Apple could have added support for 32 MIDI ports, but they must not find it necessary. OSX was always going to be a slowish OS for multimedia due to the design of the kernel, but in recent years Microsoft, sadly, has been aggressive in optimizing it's audio kernel (mainly for gamers I suppose), but Apple has not.

If you're good with Windows, and have the time to debug it, Windows has always been slightly ahead of OSX in terms of lean OS, but you have to know how to strip it down, and what hardware to buy etc. and all that can change with an OS update. Audio wise, I can't think of any developers that have said it's much harder coding for Core Audio though.

Steinberg has aggressively advanced VST3 on the Windows platform for its own DAW and, rightly so, running Cubase and VEP on a Windows PC is faster than running any DAW on OSX with AudioUnits and VEP. And where do the Emagic guys stand on this I wonder? (Btw, I used Logic for a minute back in the early 90s). Are they just happy that their DAW is the cute DAW that kids like to make dubstep on?

can't agree with this, sure, VEP in Cubase on Windows is bullet proof to a degree, but I think you're asking for a certain workflow, then taking umberage with the way Emagic team/Apple does it. Logic has built in support for slave machines, there's not much need for VEP if you own two macs. Logic can offload plug ins to the other machine.
https://documentation.apple.com/en/logi ... tasks=true

That's a lot of dubstep beats the kids can do eh? or maybe the Logic users who write "pro" music aren't worried about VEP because they already have a solution?

Why should I care? Because to use DP and VEP I have to use OSX and AUs. Well, now I don't have to because MOTU made a Windows version and much more importantly, Vienna has made a MAS version! I don't hate Apple. Actually I'm a big time Apple fanboy. But just the fact that Vienna did a MAS port says something (Apple isn't going to progress AUs). I'm sure VST3 is a big pain but at least Steinberg is taking the technology further. With Apple, not only do you not know what their plans are, you're not even sure if they have plans!

Cannot argue that, relying on big companies is in some ways worse, but mostly Apple hasn't killed anything I use, but I have Camel, NI, and multiple third party plug ins that just up and went under or were bought out.
Mostly I think Vienna realized that any Au improvements were a long way out considering Apple released Logic X, and their pricing scheme for Apps is to make them cheap, with no upgrade plan. So when Logic XI comes out in a couple years we might see serious AU upgrades not just fixes.

On the one hand you could make the point that AUs were the best thing that could have happened to DP. It's like MOTU got to go on that ride for free. But now we're kinda stuck with AUs and VST2. Two of the oldest plugin formats still in use (other than MAS ironically). But at least MAS, despite the drawbacks you mentioned, it's arguably potentially the best plugin format made for the Mac OS today. And it's in the hands of a company (MOTU) that given the chance, I feel based on their work overall, are the most capable of companies to manage a plugin format. Not everything Motu makes is gold, but most everything is.

Would you disagree with that? (I'm not referring to their stand alone VIs)

I think MOTU make good products, sure, but talk to a Windows user about their drivers.
I know a lot of Windows users think MOTU make crappy drivers, it's a constant comment on other forums anyway.
Plus, again, MOTU aren't offering AU as an open source or development tool for Apple to use with Logic or Steinberg to use, or in Live etc. It's only going to work in DP, like AAX, and if MOTU started expecting people to code for it we would see far less interest in keeping an AU version working on their part. My example of AIR is pertinent, they normally were an RTAS native only company for the longest time until recently, VST and AU are new to them. In Live, they've only got a bug free VST version together, since even though AU is popular in DP and Logic, they only bug fixed it there not in Live. So far the AU works great in DP, fingers crossed.

AU and VST2.4 are the standards now, and have been for years, issues and all, they work, VST3 is only really being used in Cubase. So until VST3 becomes the standard I doubt we will see improvements in AU. Think about it, VST3 has been out for years now.

But my main point is that I'm thrilled as punch that Vienna took it upon themselves to code a MAS version of VEP. And now they had the guts to pull the version and send it back to beta until they and MOTU could get it right. Damn, I admire that!

I do too, but the fact it wasn't bullet proof out the door and that in order for it to work without destroying your ability to load old songs with the AU version they need MOTU to fix something, not Apple, shows you how delicate this stuff is.

[Shooshie]

MAS automatically loads whether you prefer to use the VST AU or not.

This needs fact-checking. It was true in DP4.0, when DP first emerged for OS X, and we first encountered dual MAS/AU support. But I think it soon changed. I have used many plugins that were available in both MAS and AU format, and I chose the AU version. If you select them in the plugin preferences list, you have control over what loads and what doesn't.

So, let's check the facts and find out whether there is any truth to that statement, and if so, when is it true, and when is it not? Because I KNOW it's not always true, and it may not be true at all, anymore.

Shooshie

[Michael Canavan]

MAS automatically loads whether you prefer to use the VST AU or not.

This needs fact-checking. It was true in DP4.0, when DP first emerged for OS X, and we first encountered dual MAS/AU support. But I think it soon changed. I have used many plugins that were available in both MAS and AU format, and I chose the AU version. If you select them in the plugin preferences list, you have control over what loads and what doesn't.

So, let's check the facts and find out whether there is any truth to that statement, and if so, when is it true, and when is it not? Because I KNOW it's not always true, and it may not be true at all, anymore.

Shooshie

Well this is how it works with Speakerphone. The MAS version overrides the AU and VST versions.

here's the quote from VSL:

this is the current situation we´re facing: DP forces the use of MAS over AU even in an AU saved project, so it will not be able to load the data.

In other words: MAS automatically overrides AU, resulting in project data incompatibility. A project saved with VE PRO AU should be loaded with the MAS plugin version disabled.

The best way to migrate existing songs is to disable the MAS plugin in DP, load the project, preserve the instances, reload the project with MAS plugin enabled again, then reconnect the VE PRO instances.

Of course if the instances are already preserved (which we assume will be the case with most songs), reconnecting the individual VE PRO plugins will do the trick.

We´re in touch with MOTU and hope that we can find a better solution for migration.

On this page. http://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/m2 ... post235668


So in my personal experience the MAS version takes over with Speakerphone, and in Vienna's experience it does the same with VEP. It makes sense really, the MAS version is the native version.

I don't know any other third party developers of MAS plug ins besides Audio Ease and Speakerphone. With Speakerphone at one point the MAS version had a bug in it, so in order to get the Audio Unit version to load as default in DP you deselected the MAS version.

I generally don't try to spread rumors.

[Shooshie]

I don't know any other third party developers of MAS plug ins besides Audio Ease and Speakerphone. With Speakerphone at one point the MAS version had a bug in it, so in order to get the Audio Unit version to load as default in DP you deselected the MAS version.

I generally don't try to spread rumors.

Not accusing you; I'm just saying I don't know exactly what it does, and I have not been sure about how that works. We need someone who knows positively how it works to tell us. I think the key words are the ones I boldfaced in your quote. But before I deselected any MAS versions, I DO remember being able to use AU plugins with MAS still selected as an option. Memories of that time are a little uncertain, because there was a lot of change, and I wasn't really taking notes for future reference, but I also seem to remember when Audio Ease later told us we'd have to deselect MAS for Altiverb to run reliably in AU. Up to that point, I think I'd been able to choose MAS or AU versions without incident.

The one thing I know is this:

• • If MAS is deselected, the default is irrelevant, and there's not a problem.

The points I'm unsure of are:

• 1) MAS always is the default?
  2) MAS is sometimes the default depending on how both versions are written?

The way I interpreted your version, which I'm sure is not what you intended, is that if MAS is available, you have no control over it. Of course you can deselect it. But based on past behaviors that I've seen, the full set of rules governing this situation elude me.

That's all I mean by "we need fact checking." Not that you spread rumors. I totally respect what you say, and believe you're one of the most trustworthy and knowledgeable sources here. But when there is any ambiguity, I like to nip it in the bud. Sometimes that just means a little clarification, but here I really don't know the rules. Maybe you do.

Shoosh

[Shooshie]

Don't get me wrong. I don't want OSX, AU development, work on the audio kernel or Logic to go away. My only concern is when my work and choice of tools are threatened by a company that seems more interested in making cars than improving the core of their operating system. I rely on DP and VEP everyday. AudioUnits in VEP isn't great. In fact it's not even very good. Vienna wisely saw the writing on the wall with DP using the AU version of VEP with the Event plugin and how sloppy it was. Apple could have added support for 32 MIDI ports, but they must not find it necessary. OSX was always going to be a slowish OS for multimedia due to the design of the kernel, but in recent years Microsoft, sadly, has been aggressive in optimizing it's audio kernel (mainly for gamers I suppose), but Apple has not. Steinberg has aggressively advanced VST3 on the Windows platform for its own DAW and, rightly so, running Cubase and VEP on a Windows PC is faster than running any DAW on OSX with AudioUnits and VEP. And where do the Emagic guys stand on this I wonder? (Btw, I used Logic for a minute back in the early 90s). Are they just happy that their DAW is the cute DAW that kids like to make dubstep on?

Why should I care? Because to use DP and VEP I have to use OSX and AUs. Well, now I don't have to because MOTU made a Windows version and much more importantly, Vienna has made a MAS version! I don't hate Apple. Actually I'm a big time Apple fanboy. But just the fact that Vienna did a MAS port says something (Apple isn't going to progress AUs). I'm sure VST3 is a big pain but at least Steinberg is taking the technology further. With Apple, not only do you not know what their plans are, you're not even sure if they have plans!

On the one hand you could make the point that AUs were the best thing that could have happened to DP. It's like MOTU got to go on that ride for free. But now we're kinda stuck with AUs and VST2. Two of the oldest plugin formats still in use (other than MAS ironically). But at least MAS, despite the drawbacks you mentioned, it's arguably potentially the best plugin format made for the Mac OS today. And it's in the hands of a company (MOTU) that given the chance, I feel based on their work overall, are the most capable of companies to manage a plugin format. Not everything Motu makes is gold, but most everything is.

Would you disagree with that? (I'm not referring to their stand alone VIs)

I hope I was able to get my point across. I would only use Windows if I had no other choice. AUs isn't a bad platform. It's just not a progressive one. Not sure if that's Apple's or Emagic's fault. It brought us a lot of great plugins that we may not have had the chance to use otherwise. But my main point is that I'm thrilled as punch that Vienna took it upon themselves to code a MAS version of VEP. And now they had the guts to pull the version and send it back to beta until they and MOTU could get it right. Damn, I admire that!

I agree with every point, and could not have said it better, myself. These are my concerns, too. I can't believe that for the first time I'm actually envying Cubase users a little, and not because MOTU is inattentive to DP, but because Apple has become a wild card. With its attention to mind-blowing designer watches for upscale lifestyles and an Apple car, how many times do you think the words "Audio Units" have crossed Tim Cook's desk in the past 5 years? It's the most profitable damn company on earth, for goodness sake! Who knows what other products are in the pipeline? But one thing seems pretty certain right now: professional multi-media technologies are simply not on the Apple Radar, except for photo-ops with famous people like U2. All of our creative and professional interests — our livelihood — could go away at moment's notice, without so much as a press release.

NOT THAT THEY WILL! I'm not trying to seed unrest; I'm only saying that I've never felt so alienated from Apple, the foundation of most of my work for the past 30 years. Their sudden right-angle turns (including the shift to Intel, which they had been saying they'd never do) have only left me certain that I sit on Apple's rug. They can jerk it out from under me when they please, without apology, but at least I sit on the same rug as most of the creative world, so it would not happen without a tremendous backlash against the company. I think they'll never jerk that rug out from under us, but it's no longer the center of their living room. They're working on other things.

I'm thinking too much. I need to get back to work and stop speculating on what shouldn't be my concern, and yet I keep going back to Cubase and things like Note Expression and Expression Maps. I just want to see some movement. We've been sitting in a stagnant place with MIDI for a long time, now. What MOTU does can only go so far. If Apple doesn't lead, the industry — at least our side of it — doesn't change.

Shooshie

[mikehalloran]

Their sudden right-angle turns (including the shift to Intel, which they had been saying they'd never do)

Really? That's a thing with you?

What choice did Apple have? The PPC Consortium had hit a brick wall with the G5 and those CPUs required liquid cooling. No G6 was on the horizon. Intel demonstrated chips that were faster and far more energy efficient – still – and they were the only ones who offered anything like it.

[Shooshie]

Their sudden right-angle turns (including the shift to Intel, which they had been saying they'd never do)

Really? That's a thing with you?

What choice did Apple have? The PPC Consortium had hit a brick wall with the G5 and those CPUs required liquid cooling. No G6 was on the horizon. Intel demonstrated chips that were faster and far more energy efficient – still – and they were the only ones who offered anything like it.

Read more carefully. It says that Apple's many turns show that we're subject to their whims, which they deny until they do it. The Intel thing stood out, because they blatantly denied that they were doing it, right up until they did it. I was thrilled that they dropped PPC and went to Intel. It's just that they kept saying they weren't going to do it. I'm sure glad I didn't buy a G5 right before they switched, and I really needed to do that. I held out because the G5 didn't offer that much gain in performance, and it was reported to be loud and hot. Luckily, I held out until the change.

The "thing" is not "Intel," but the fact that we never know what they'll do. Sorry if my analogy of "sitting on Apple's rug" was unclear to you.

Shooshie

[Michael Canavan]

I agree with every point, and could not have said it better, myself. These are my concerns, too. I can't believe that for the first time I'm actually envying Cubase users a little, and not because MOTU is inattentive to DP, but because Apple has become a wild card. With its attention to mind-blowing designer watches for upscale lifestyles and an Apple car, how many times do you think the words "Audio Units" have crossed Tim Cook's desk in the past 5 years? It's the most profitable damn company on earth, for goodness sake! Who knows what other products are in the pipeline? But one thing seems pretty certain right now: professional multi-media technologies are simply not on the Apple Radar, except for photo-ops with famous people like U2. All of our creative and professional interests — our livelihood — could go away at moment's notice, without so much as a press release.

The top ten selling Apps at the App store include FCPx, Logic and Apple Server. That, IMO is going to keep Apple interested in development. Sure they sell a lot of phones, but it wouldn't make any sense for them to get rid of profitable business ventures because another is doing well.

Plus, and this is pretty big, almost no DAW makers have adopted VST3, the R&D involved outweighs the sales generated it seems. This is the sad part, it's been out since 2008! If you wonder why AU is stagnating think about that, Steinberg released VST3 7 years ago and only a handful of plugins are coded for it, and only two or three DAWs support it.

On the subject of MAS overriding AU, again from the horses mouth at Vienna:

this is the current situation we´re facing: DP forces the use of MAS over AU even in an AU saved project, so it will not be able to load the data.

I really want to see AU updated too, but I get why Apple are slow to develop it and IMO it has nothing to do with their lack of commitment to the creative community and everything to do with the obvious lack of interest developers have in adopting new standards. VST3 being 8 years old and not being very widely supported at all is a huge red flag to Apple that developers aren't going to implement any new standard without some sort of impetus to do so, even in the most universally accept format, VST.

Just a guess, but VST3's show up in a different folder in the Plug Ins folder, they seem to be incompatible with VST2.4 that way, you're not going to get an updated version of Kontakt for VST3 that instantly replaces the VST2.4 version on your system. This probably hasn't helped development of VST3 and it's possible Apple is working on a seamless AU update that replaces and coexists with your current AU's.

[Shooshie]

The top ten selling Apps at the App store include FCPx, Logic and Apple Server. That, IMO is going to keep Apple interested in development. Sure they sell a lot of phones, but it wouldn't make any sense for them to get rid of profitable business ventures because another is doing well.

Well, I do appreciate your optimism. I wish I could get in that positive space and stay there! And as I said before, the things I worry about probably never will happen, so I'd bet that you're right. It's just hard for me to stay focused there, because certain trends make it seem otherwise.

Shooshie

[mikehalloran]

Just a guess, but VST3's show up in a different folder in the Plug Ins folder, they seem to be incompatible with VST2.4

That's not just a guess as any of us who own Antares plugins can verify. Antares AUs are barely compatible with DP 8 (Antares cautions us to test everything first) and decent support is non-existant. The VST 3 versions are incompatible and there is no other VST set.