How would you setup a variable speed playback for practice?

Discussion of Digital Performer use, optimization, tips and techniques on MacOS.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
This forum is for most discussion related to the use and optimization of Digital Performer [MacOS] and plug-ins as well as tips and techniques. It is NOT for troubleshooting technical issues, complaints, feature requests, or "Comparative DAW 101."
User avatar
HobbyCore
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:48 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

How would you setup a variable speed playback for practice?

Post by HobbyCore »

I frequently have musicians who are performing highly technical parts (usually on guitar or drums). They often like to practice the part at varying slower tempos to bring themselves slowly up to speed.

Usually I just render the section in question, open it in Reaper and use the variable playback function there. It allows me to to playback the part, without changing pitch, and any speed I'd like.

I had to do this last night and it got me thinking, "What would be the best way to do this in DP?"

So, is there an easy way to do this? The best I can think of is rendering out the section then creating a bunch of takes that are manually stretched. Anything faster than that?

edit: Reaper is censored. How clever :roll:
User avatar
bayswater
Posts: 11969
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Vancouver

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by bayswater »

If by render you mean bounce a mix of the section of interest, do that, selecting time range with the I beam tool on one of the tracks, and then command select the others. Bounce to disk (Control J) using the option to add the mix back into the sequence.

The result will appear in a new track. Stretch it by dragging the upper right corner of the soundbite with the select tool, or if you need to be exact about the amount of stretch, use the Scale Time command ( you can assign a shortcut to this).

Now you can select the stretched soundbite, click "set to selection bounds" in the start stop section of the transport, and press the shortcuts for "Cycle on", and "play from memory start".
2018 Mini i7 32G 10.14.6, DP 11.3, Mixbus 9, Logic 10.5, Scarlett 18i8
User avatar
Gravity Jim
Posts: 2005
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:55 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by Gravity Jim »

HobbyCore wrote: edit: Reaper is censored. How clever :roll:
Let's not get pushy now. Between the eye roll and your inability to discover the most obvious features of DP on your own, you don't sound like somebody who is really here to have their questions answered.

Look under the Audio pull down menu. See "Soundbite tempo?" And the "Adjust Soundbite to Sequence Tempo" command? Look those up in the manual and see if they help.

The reason DP doesn't have a "play me back at any speed" joystick as you say Reaper does is because DP produces clean, sample-accurate audio, and not garbled yak as some practically free DAWs do. DP is software for professionals.

But even DP doesn't really nail long stretches... no DAW really does. If you want super extra mega great results while changing the speed of recorded audio, you might want to look into Melodyne or RX3. No DAW does a really great job of it beyond a certain point.
Jim Bordner

MacPro 5,1 (3.33Ghz 12-core), 32g RAM, OS X 10.14.6 • MOTU DP 10.11 • Logic Pro X 10.2.5 • Waves Platinum, UAD-2, Slate Digital, Komplete, Omnisphere 2, LASS, CineSamples, Chipsounds, V Collection 5[color]
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by Shooshie »

HobbyCore wrote:edit: Reaper is censored. How clever :roll:
I suppose from time to time we'll have to repeat the background:

R. was the product of a collaboration of guys who had made their fortunes in music sharing software, sometimes known as music piracy software, depending on your perspective. Not needing the money, but wanting to make a DAW that fit their tastes, they created R and gave it away. Later, they claimed you needed to buy a license, but you could still use the unrestricted demo as long as you liked, so it was still "given away," but in a form that could be called "condoned piracy."

This was at a time when Apple had recently bought Logic and lowered the price by half, apps were being sold for pennies on iOS devices, and it appeared that a business-model based on selling a full-functioned DAW app, with millions of dollars of research and development over decades of experience, might soon be no longer viable. It seemed like a form of app piracy, and it was threatening to put out of business the very experts who had created the business.

So, as it happened, a number of people began trolling the forum with comments about how R. did this or that, and DP couldn't. For the most part, it seemed that these were kids with little experience in music or DAWs, and no experience with DP. Most of what they said about DP was inaccurate; even slight knowledge would have precluded such ridiculous comments. Some of our members tried R., including myself, and found an immature attempt at a DAW, barely able to do the things we require of such a complicated piece of software. Of course, it was getting better, and I'm sure that today it's competitive in whatever niche it was targeted for, but at that time it had a long way to go.

It was obvious that the purpose of the trolling wasn't to provoke discussion or improvement or anything other than to generate unfounded rumors that would float for years in search engines. That, combined with R.'s basic "pirate" business model encouraging users to steal the software (or not discouraging it), despite the nominal sales price that supposedly made it legit, brought the owner of this board to the point of having to make a decision. He has a strict rule about software piracy; it's not allowed, not even a wink-wink sort of ignoring it. If he suspects you of pirating software, you are thrown out of the forum, which is almost the only thing that will get you thrown out. So, James made the decision to censor the word, R., which doesn't affect most conversations, unless you're talking about the Grim Reaper, or harvesting wheat, but even then we clearly get the idea.

We know the word when we see it censored. That's not the point. The point was to avoid the massive build up of unfounded rumors sitting in search engines around the globe, so that every time someone searched for Reaper, they'd see "DP can't do yadda yadda yadda. It's crap compared to Reaper, which does everything you need, better than these old burned-out DAWs." If the statements had been true, it's debatable whether James would have made that decision, but the piracy-centric nature of Reaper at that time would still have probably persuaded him to do the same thing. But the statements were unfounded, the trolling was infantile, and there was really nothing redeeming about most of those threads.

It has been annoying to even some of our long-time members, who might like to discuss Reaper without censorship, but I haven't seen many threads that could discuss it without falling into that same pattern of trashing DP needlessly, and usually with colossal ignorance. For that reason, and out of respect for James and his leadership of this board — with rules that have given us a lot of freedom while eliminating the topics that usually cause forum degradation — I support the continuance of his decision to censor the name. You can still discuss it. We all know what Reaper means. Or you can go elsewhere to discuss it. There's no shortage of forums out there with endless threads about Reaper. But if you discuss it here, you will see the name redacted. It's about those things that come from the seedy side of the internet: piracy, trolling, using unfounded rumor to bias internet searches against a competitor, burying them under tons of lies, to the point that the truth can't even be found, anymore. In other words: politics. And politics is strictly forbidden on this forum.

That's the story, at least as I remember it.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
HobbyCore
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:48 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by HobbyCore »

bayswater wrote:If by render you mean bounce a mix of the section of interest, do that, selecting time range with the I beam tool on one of the tracks, and then command select the others. Bounce to disk (Control J) using the option to add the mix back into the sequence.

The result will appear in a new track. Stretch it by dragging the upper right corner of the soundbite with the select tool, or if you need to be exact about the amount of stretch, use the Scale Time command ( you can assign a shortcut to this).

Now you can select the stretched soundbite, click "set to selection bounds" in the start stop section of the transport, and press the shortcuts for "Cycle on", and "play from memory start".
I missed a large part of the workflow, which is entirely my fault: The click track.

In your workflow, how would I deal with having a click that syncs with the stretched audio? Rendering the click with the audio sounds fairly poor.

I'll double check the manual to see if there's a way to adjust beats when stretching. I could just drop the render into a new sequence and do what I need there.
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by Shooshie »

How long does it take to make a new click track?
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
HobbyCore
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:48 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by HobbyCore »

Shooshie wrote:
HobbyCore wrote:edit: R••••• is censored. How clever :roll:
I suppose from time to time we'll have to repeat the background:

R. was the product of a collaboration of guys who had made their fortunes in music sharing software, sometimes known as music piracy software, depending on your perspective. Not needing the money, but wanting to make a DAW that fit their tastes, they created R and gave it away. Later, they claimed you needed to buy a license, but you could still use the unrestricted demo as long as you liked, so it was still "given away," but in a form that could be called "condoned piracy."

This was at a time when Apple had recently bought Logic and lowered the price by half, apps were being sold for pennies on iOS devices, and it appeared that a business-model based on selling a full-functioned DAW app, with millions of dollars of research and development over decades of experience, might soon be no longer viable. It seemed like a form of app piracy, and it was threatening to put out of business the very experts who had created the business.

So, as it happened, a number of people began trolling the forum with comments about how R. did this or that, and DP couldn't. For the most part, it seemed that these were kids with little experience in music or DAWs, and no experience with DP. Most of what they said about DP was inaccurate; even slight knowledge would have precluded such ridiculous comments. Some of our members tried R., including myself, and found an immature attempt at a DAW, barely able to do the things we require of such a complicated piece of software. Of course, it was getting better, and I'm sure that today it's competitive in whatever niche it was targeted for, but at that time it had a long way to go.

It was obvious that the purpose of the trolling wasn't to provoke discussion or improvement or anything other than to generate unfounded rumors that would float for years in search engines. That, combined with R.'s basic "pirate" business model encouraging users to steal the software (or not discouraging it), despite the nominal sales price that supposedly made it legit, brought the owner of this board to the point of having to make a decision. He has a strict rule about software piracy; it's not allowed, not even a wink-wink sort of ignoring it. If he suspects you of pirating software, you are thrown out of the forum, which is almost the only thing that will get you thrown out. So, James made the decision to censor the word, R., which doesn't affect most conversations, unless you're talking about the Grim R•••••, or harvesting wheat, but even then we clearly get the idea.

We know the word when we see it censored. That's not the point. The point was to avoid the massive build up of unfounded rumors sitting in search engines around the globe, so that every time someone searched for R•••••, they'd see "DP can't do yadda yadda yadda. It's crap compared to R•••••, which does everything you need, better than these old burned-out DAWs." If the statements had been true, it's debatable whether James would have made that decision, but the piracy-centric nature of R••••• at that time would still have probably persuaded him to do the same thing. But the statements were unfounded, the trolling was infantile, and there was really nothing redeeming about most of those threads.

It has been annoying to even some of our long-time members, who might like to discuss R••••• without censorship, but I haven't seen many threads that could discuss it without falling into that same pattern of trashing DP needlessly, and usually with colossal ignorance. For that reason, and out of respect for James and his leadership of this board — with rules that have given us a lot of freedom while eliminating the topics that usually cause forum degradation — I support the continuance of his decision to censor the name. You can still discuss it. We all know what R••••• means. Or you can go elsewhere to discuss it. There's no shortage of forums out there with endless threads about R•••••. But if you discuss it here, you will see the name redacted. It's about those things that come from the seedy side of the internet: piracy, trolling, using unfounded rumor to bias internet searches against a competitor, burying them under tons of lies, to the point that the truth can't even be found, anymore. In other words: politics. And politics is strictly forbidden on this forum.

That's the story, at least as I remember it.

Shooshie
Thank you for the background info. I can understand why it could be problematic based on the information you provided.

I actually was confused when I read back my post, and had to double check to make sure that I didn't screw something up. It would be nice if you were warned when a word is censored like that. It is somewhat startling to have your post content automatically edited, especially when it's completely innocuous.
User avatar
HobbyCore
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:48 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by HobbyCore »

Shooshie wrote:Geez, how long does it take to make a new click track?
When the artist says 'Can we go back to 75?' then a few seconds later 'Howabout 90 again' then 'Howabout 100 now' etc... It can take way too long, at least as far as I've figured out.

I'm still working on seeing if there's a way to do it quickly in DP, and in the meantime I thought to tap into the vast knowledge available here.
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by Shooshie »

By the way, many of us keep several DAWs on our system for experimentation and/or use for those things at which they excel. Though I don't speak highly of Logic, I've only tossed it out of my Dock; it still resides in my Apps folder (but it's not updated; I don't think it will run in my current OS). I also have Reaper, Live, Studio One, and a few others, but I would have to find them; I don't always even know where I put them. The point being that it's not cheating to use another DAW for what you want it for. There's nothing wrong with using Reaper to stretch your audio files with variable playback, if that's what you wish to do.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
HobbyCore
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:48 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by HobbyCore »

Ok, so what I've worked out so far:

1 Bounce selection to disk
2 New sequence
3 Import bounce to sequence
4 Set tempo as desired
5 Audio menu> Soundbite Tempo> Adjust Soundbites to Sequence Tempo (just found this)

Repeat 4>5 as necessary.

Any improvements on this?
User avatar
HobbyCore
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:48 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by HobbyCore »

Shooshie wrote:By the way, many of us keep several DAWs on our system for experimentation and/or use for those things at which they excel. Though I don't speak highly of Logic, I've only tossed it out of my Dock; it still resides in my Apps folder (but it's not updated; I don't think it will run in my current OS). I also have R•••••, Live, Studio One, and a few others, but I would have to find them; I don't always even know where I put them. The point being that it's not cheating to use another DAW for what you want it for. There's nothing wrong with using R••••• to stretch your audio files with variable playback, if that's what you wish to do.

Shooshie
I understand, but I am curious if I can improve the workflow by using DP only. It would certainly save me a lot of annoyance, since I otherwise can't stand using Reaper.
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by Shooshie »

HobbyCore wrote:
Shooshie wrote:Geez, how long does it take to make a new click track?
When the artist says 'Can we go back to 75?' then a few seconds later 'Howabout 90 again' then 'Howabout 100 now' etc... It can take way too long, at least as far as I've figured out.

I'm still working on seeing if there's a way to do it quickly in DP, and in the meantime I thought to tap into the vast knowledge available here.
Stay in the MIDI realm until you've gotten past all that. That's pretty much standard operating procedure. The ability to stretch time in audio is still not a mature art. I've no doubt that someday it will be, but until then, who can blame MOTU for not wanting to hear crap stretched or squeezed from whale to chipmunk, with someone saying "Yeah, I did that in DP!"

Also, it's nice to remind artists of the old tool we used to call a Metronome. You don't need to slow down an entire DAW arrangement just to work out a part. Finding the right tempo is another matter, and most DAWs, DP included, can give you enough variation for that. But ½ speed, ¾ speed, etc, is for the domain of the metronome. I know, I know... I'm showing my age. We used to walk to school in 5 miles of snow, and walked back in 10 miles of snow, uphill in both directions. Practiced to a metronome the whole way!

But seriously, just because you can imagine slowing down audio the way you can with MIDI, that doesn't make it a great idea.
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
HobbyCore
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:48 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by HobbyCore »

Shooshie wrote:
HobbyCore wrote:
Shooshie wrote:Geez, how long does it take to make a new click track?
When the artist says 'Can we go back to 75?' then a few seconds later 'Howabout 90 again' then 'Howabout 100 now' etc... It can take way too long, at least as far as I've figured out.

I'm still working on seeing if there's a way to do it quickly in DP, and in the meantime I thought to tap into the vast knowledge available here.
Stay in the MIDI realm until you've gotten past all that. That's pretty much standard operating procedure. The ability to stretch time in audio is still not a mature art. I've no doubt that someday it will be, but until then, who can blame MOTU for not wanting to hear crap stretched or squeezed from whale to chipmunk, with someone saying "Yeah, I did that in DP!"

Also, it's nice to remind artists of the old tool we used to call a Metronome. You don't need to slow down an entire DAW arrangement just to work out a part. Finding the right tempo is another matter, and most DAWs, DP included, can give you enough variation for that. But ½ speed, ¾ speed, etc, is for the domain of the metronome. I know, I know... I'm showing my age. We used to walk to school in 5 miles of snow, and walked back in 10 miles of snow, uphill in both directions. Practiced to a metronome the whole way!

But seriously, just because you can imagine slowing down audio the way you can with MIDI, that doesn't make it a great idea.
I'm not working with any MIDI at all in this scenario. So I only have audio to work with.

I understand that it may not sound amazing, but this is simply a practice tool. It is something I've been asked to do many times, without offering it. The musicians frequently use it to work on their timing, fingering, whatever... or to actual work on the part itself.

Being paid by the hour, I'm ok with being fiddling around, and I'm ok with encouraging it :lol:
User avatar
bayswater
Posts: 11969
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Vancouver

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by bayswater »

HobbyCore wrote:Ok, so what I've worked out so far:

1 Bounce selection to disk
2 New sequence
3 Import bounce to sequence
4 Set tempo as desired
5 Audio menu> Soundbite Tempo> Adjust Soundbites to Sequence Tempo (just found this)

Repeat 4>5 as necessary.

Any improvements on this?
I didn't consider that you might want a click track linked to the adjusted sequence. I haven't tried it the way you did it, but it looks pretty efficient, and maybe clean because you are using a separate chunk.

I suppose though, you could also keep it all in one place, and just adjust the sequence tempo to fit the degree of stretch in the soundbite while practising. That way you could keep using any markers you have on the existing tempo track to move to different places in the score, as long as the markers are not frozen to time, and they are there before you do the stretch.
2018 Mini i7 32G 10.14.6, DP 11.3, Mixbus 9, Logic 10.5, Scarlett 18i8
User avatar
HobbyCore
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:48 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: How would you setup a variable speed playback for practi

Post by HobbyCore »

bayswater wrote:
HobbyCore wrote:Ok, so what I've worked out so far:

1 Bounce selection to disk
2 New sequence
3 Import bounce to sequence
4 Set tempo as desired
5 Audio menu> Soundbite Tempo> Adjust Soundbites to Sequence Tempo (just found this)

Repeat 4>5 as necessary.

Any improvements on this?
I didn't consider that you might want a click track linked to the adjusted sequence. I haven't tried it the way you did it, but it looks pretty efficient, and maybe clean because you are using a separate chunk.

I suppose though, you could also keep it all in one place, and just adjust the sequence tempo to fit the degree of stretch in the soundbite while practising. That way you could keep using any markers you have on the existing tempo track to move to different places in the score, as long as the markers are not frozen to time, and they are there before you do the stretch.
That helped a lot. I explored some ideas based on your post and this is what I've come up with.

So all it seems that I need to do is:

1. Duplicate Chunk
2. Change tempo (or make a change in the conductor track if that's being used)
3. Cmd-a (select all)
4. Adjust Soundbites to Sequence Tempo (now on a hotkey)

I'm curious if/when I should duplicate the sequence. I could save more time by having a new chunk for each common tempo requested. I'm probably over-optimizing this, but if I can spend an hour now to save myself a minute every day for the rest of my working life... I'm willing to do it :mrgreen:

This lets me keep my markers intact and adjust the mix as necessary. WAY better than how I was doing it before. I hope this thread perhaps helps someone else in the future.
Post Reply