Vienna Ensemble Pro will add MAS support !!

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Steve Steele
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Re: Vienna Ensemble Pro will add MAS support !!

Post by Steve Steele »

bayswater wrote:
Shooshie wrote:
bayswater wrote:I think it's a leftover from when DP had a unique interface pre-OS X, only used SD2, used that weird plugin format, and had a window for everything. If I look at a screen shot of DP 4/5 now, it does look weird.
That was the style of the day./quote]
How do you mean? Most Mac apps at the time, and even now, just used the standard OS windows and tools to manage them. DP had additional buttons, menus and extra doodads on its window frames. These windows were lilely very useful to long term experienced users, but made it difficult for new users to transfer learning from other applications. That's what I think would lead to the "weird" label.

I suspect Apple made it difficult to customize windows the way MOTU had done when they went on a Branded Look And Feel crusade with OS X. And so we got DP 6 that looked like any other app (and therefore was not "Weird") An interesting exception now is Apple itself which still uses their "pro" theme for a couple of their "pro" apps, incorporating low contrast grey on grey, miniscule menu bars, and tiny buttons. The new Weird.
Early versions of DP and Performer didn't always use the Mac OS (System 7) windowing system for dialog boxes, and the interface had all of those funky triangle and stair-stepped icons (like the Chuncks icons, etc). Compared to a program like Vision, Performer seemed odd to me. But it always felt more complete.

I bought DP in 1993 because of an ad I saw in Electronic Musician that showed DP natively running four tracks of audio using the Audiomedia II card. From what I recall at that time it was either that or a Pro Tools system. That was too expensive so DP won by default. Once I got to know it, other DAWs felt awkward.

I can understand when people who don't use DP first, think it's a deep or mysterious program, but all DAWs are a little bit strange compared to your average application. I think it took most DAW developers a few years to consepualize how a DAW should look and work.

You're right though. Apple breaks their own Human Interface Guideline suggestions all the time.

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Michael Canavan
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Re: Vienna Ensemble Pro will add MAS support !!

Post by Michael Canavan »

James Steele wrote:I guess I'm weird. I can't figure out why someone would find DP "weird." It's pretty much built on a multi-track tape sort of idiom, isn't it? Seems simple enough. Oh well... that's why there are different DAWs.
I think I could answer this. I stepped away from DP around the time plug ins became really popular in 2000. In 2.7 with a hardware EMU sampler and a few synths etc. I could use Chunks and the Song Window to create tracks, everything was pretty straightforward, but as soon as I started adding in MAS plug ins Chunks and the Song window became problematic. Basically to a degree the whole paradigm works better if you don't use track automation, stick VI's in a V-Rack and do project management to make sure that tracks are all properly named and coherent in various Chunks so that when you Merge Chinks they come out neatly.

To someone coming from Logic or Cubase etc. with it's single arrangement window, Chunks can seem to get in the way. The desire to use them and use the Song Window is there because those programs parse MIDI data based on user specifications IE object oriented MIDI, so you can "glue" together data that serves as the break in a song etc. no matter the size. That immedialty runs up against issues with track automation and V-Racks....

To a degree the Song Window and that whole way of working is tied to hardware, but many many VST AU plug ins are only so versed in MIDI, whereas automating them with track automation is dead simple.

In short there are multiple ways to use DP in no small part due to the versatility of Chunks, and some of those ways seem awkward to someone coming from a single arrangement page DAW.
You have the Tracks Overview and Sequence Editor in DP that serves the same purpose as the single window arrangement page in Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools, Sonar, etc. then you have the whole concept of Sequence Chunks, not to mention the Song Window and V-Racks.

Of course if you only work in one Chunk, it's not that strange for sure. Although plenty of users will ask me why DP has two tracks, MIDI and VI for instruments, and of course the obvious reason is the way they work with Chunks and V-Racks.

I'm not knocking DP by saying this, all these things have solid reasons for being the way it is, and I prefer it this way, but to someone not used to DP's way, it seems very unfamiliar and weird. This really only applies to people coming from other DAWs though, if you start in DP it goes smoothly.
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toodamnhip
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Re: Vienna Ensemble Pro will add MAS support !!

Post by toodamnhip »

I hear “better timing” with DP, in the description of the upcoming VE Pro.
Well, that is all fine and dandy but....

I do wish Vienna would publish SPECIFICS when they update.
Why?
Because if VE timing is changing while one is in the middle of a track, and suddenly the software updates..well, that would mean a slightly different timing for PREVIOUSLY approved drums, and other instruments.
While I do appreciate that VE Pro is improving this, ...what about previous Grooves and feel/vibe?
I am going to be a bit neurotic about the suddenly “improved” feel of drums that I previous nudged and tweaked to make perfect.
If VE would publish something like the following, I would be most appreciative:
“The timing accuracy has changed 87 samples. If a user has a file in progress from a previous version of VE Pro, shift your samples backwards 87 samples to duplicate the timing of the previous version”.

Thank you, the management and caretaker of all DP Masters, ensuring continuity throughout the ages..... :D
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Steve Steele
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Re: Vienna Ensemble Pro will add MAS support !!

Post by Steve Steele »

toodamnhip wrote:I hear “better timing” with DP, in the description of the upcoming VE Pro.
Well, that is all fine and dandy but....

I do wish Vienna would publish SPECIFICS when they update.
Why?
Because if VE timing is changing while one is in the middle of a track, and suddenly the software updates..well, that would mean a slightly different timing for PREVIOUSLY approved drums, and other instruments.
While I do appreciate that VE Pro is improving this, ...what about previous Grooves and feel/vibe?
I am going to be a bit neurotic about the suddenly “improved” feel of drums that I previous nudged and tweaked to make perfect.
If VE would publish something like the following, I would be most appreciative:
“The timing accuracy has changed 87 samples. If a user has a file in progress from a previous version of VE Pro, shift your samples backwards 87 samples to duplicate the timing of the previous version”.

Thank you, the management and caretaker of all DP Masters, ensuring continuity throughout the ages..... :D
I wonder if they meant different timing or more efficient timing?

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comp15
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Re: Vienna Ensemble Pro will add MAS support !!

Post by comp15 »

I'm new to digital performer. What does this mean exactly? I'll be using East West Diamond series. As of now, does VEPRo not work well with Digital Performer? Can I expect to create rather large project files using a slave PC?
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Re: Vienna Ensemble Pro will add MAS support !!

Post by Steve Steele »

comp15 wrote:I'm new to digital performer. What does this mean exactly? I'll be using East West Diamond series. As of now, does VEPRo not work well with Digital Performer? Can I expect to create rather large project files using a slave PC?
VEPro works great with DP. I've got a huge template running smoothly. This just means that Vienna is now going to support DP's native plugin format which has advantages over AU and VST2.

It was already great. Once this is released and assuming everything runs fine, which I'm sure it will, this means a "first in class" environment, IMO.

Vienna just went the extra mile for it's DP users that's all. No worries. Carry on.

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Interfaces: MOTU M2 and 8A (2.1 and 5.1 setups).
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Sample Libraries: Primary - VSL (all), Spitfire, (mostly all), and many others.
External Controllers: Metagrid Pro and Studio Logic SL|MIXFACE
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