Vienna Ensemble Pro will add MAS support !!

[bayswater]

This all sounds great but maybe someone could clarify a couple of things.

It looks like the MAS plugin format is used by DP for all plugins, even AU and VST via the MAS bundles you see in the plugin folders, which appear to be wrappers of some sort. If so, it won't be going away soon. But is MOTU keeping MAS the plugin format fresh? I ask because MachFive doesn't have a MAS version. If you want to go past 64 MIDI channels you need a host that supports VST3 AFAICT. That leads to the second question: wouldn't a VST3 version of VEP have done the same thing?

[Shooshie]

I can't say anything that isn't just conjecture, but it seems to me that MAS (MOTU Audio System) is the name MOTU gave to their underlying audio and plug in architecture. If you right click on the DP8 app you will see in the DP8/Contents/MacOS/Plugins/MAS folder a MAS AudioUnit Support.bundle and a MAS VST Support.bundle. Basically my guess is MAS is and was MOTU's proprietary plug in format. In 2000 or so we had pretty much every major player with their own format, Pro Tools with RTAS, DP with MAS, and Steinberg with VST. At that point only VST was a publicly available format for hosting plug ins. As a side note, the slow adoption was in part due to Steinberg's poor VST hosting documentation, no surprise considering they make Cubase and Nuendo.


Basically, MAS is not just a plug in format, it's the way DP communicates plug ins in the first place. I would guess coding for MAS is in some ways slightly easier and other ways more difficult, probably adding better integration and stability, not unlike Ableton Live's embedded third party instruments and FX from AAS, Softube and Cytomic.

On this note, Speakerphone in the latest update is a MAS plug in pretty much only, they don't recommend using the VST or AU version. <--- I've been investigating Novation Automap, and this was a somewhat frustrating thing on some levels, but hopefully DP9's new learn controller features offer some of what Automaped plug ins do.

You're basically right: MAS is MOTU Audio System. It's the engine that always ran Digital Performer audio and still does. In the early days of OS X, MAS was having to communicate with Core Audio. I don't know how that was done, or how they worked it out, but it seemed to be a stumbling block that Logic and others didn't have to deal with so much. I suspect that MOTU's unique vision had made MAS superior to Core Audio, and yet MAS had to route all audio work through it. Whatever happened, MAS is still with us, but as a plugin format, MOTU is the main proponent of MAS. Altiverb and just a few others offer MAS support.

There was a time when all major plugin developers offered a MAS version. Waves was available in MAS. These makers ceased their MAS development after a few years into OS X. There were lost capabilities, but the Audio Units standardization won out. (Think VHS over Beta)

One of the big benefits of the MAS plugin format was that it had 64 outputs. (I think that's correct. If not, it's in the ballpark) You could easily set up 64 instruments in one library instance, each with its own output channel. I suspect that has something to do with Vienna's decision to go back to MAS. MAS also does true side-chaining, and I think it accepts MIDI connections for control and triggers. It's been a long time, so I may not be getting all this exactly right, but that's how I remember it. AU promised lots of outputs and sidechaining, but it has never come close to the MAS specs.

Also, MAS plugins process at 32 bits floating point. I simply do not know if AU offers that, or if your audio goes through a truncation when going through AU plugins. Seems unlikely that AU would diminish the capabilities of DP, so I'm hoping it also works at 32 bits FP.

Anyway, MAS was and is a great format. Its fall from grace was mostly due to the popularity of AU, because of its ubiquity in OS X, and because of the massive widespread adoption of Logic by Apple users after the acquisition. Logic was a 2nd tier DAW with a niche market. It's taken years for a lot of people to figure that out, and even with top-to-bottom redesigns to make it easier for people outside that niche, Logic remains an app that requires more effort for the amount of musicality that you derive from it. I'm guessing that Vienna has also realized that.

This all sounds great but maybe someone could clarify a couple of things.

It looks like the MAS plugin format is used by DP for all plugins, even AU and VST via the MAS bundles you see in the plugin folders, which appear to be wrappers of some sort. If so, it won't be going away soon. But is MOTU keeping MAS the plugin format fresh? I ask because MachFive doesn't have a MAS version. If you want to go past 64 MIDI channels you need a host that supports VST3 AFAICT. That leads to the second question: wouldn't a VST3 version of VEP have done the same thing?

I really don't know what's under the hood of MAS. It's not just a plugin format, but the entire audio system in which we work. It was the system that promised sample-accuracy alignment between audio and MIDI, and with all tracks, plugins, processes, and time-code syncing. I don't think all audio engines did that.

Maybe MOTU found it easier to market MachFive without having to make it work with all formats. Just a guess.

As for why Vienna chose MAS over VST3, you'd have to ask them. They're pretty particular when it comes to sound. Maybe they discovered what many suspected all along: MAS was always the best audio engine out there, but lost to mediocrity in a popularity contest.

My opinions, only.

Shooshie

[bayswater]

really don't know what's under the hood of MAS. It's not just a plugin format, but the entire audio system in which we work. It was the system that promised sample-accuracy alignment between audio and MIDI, and with all tracks, plugins, processes, and time-code syncing. I don't think all audio engines did that.

Maybe MOTU found it easier to market MachFive without having to make it work with all formats. Just a guess.

As for why Vienna chose MAS over VST3, you'd have to ask them. They're pretty particular when it comes to sound. Maybe they discovered what many suspected all along: MAS was always the best audio engine out there, but lost to mediocrity in a popularity contest.

My opinions, only.

Shooshie

Yes, presumably, MAS refers to both the audio engine and the plugin format. But the plugins were the topic. On MachFive, it just seems odd that MOTU would not do a MAS version. DP users have to be a big part of the customer base, and if MOTU can't cook up a MAS version you have to wonder why.

As for the VEP decision, I suppose the simplest explanation is that they want to cater to DP users and can't do that with VST3. I doubt sound quality is the issue. Plugin formats might vary in efficiency, stability, etc, but it seems unlikely the actual DSP portion of the plugin is dependent on the way the plugin interfaces with the host. Maybe I'll do a null test with something that comes in MAS, AU and VST, and see if it makes any difference.

Which takes us back to point 1: maybe the reason there is no MAS version of MachFive is that no one needs it.

[Steve Steele]

I think Vienna must take DP users pretty seriously to add a new and fairly unused plugin format to a program as popular as VEPro.

I think it's because VEPro is a tool that holds special appeal to film/TV composers who by and large are far more likely to be using DP because of its unique abilities in this area.

Right. Cubase, Logic and DP are the big three. This move will definitely attract some switchers, which I'm seeing a lot of the days. It's great for MOTU.

[James Steele]

I think the feature set of DP... "chunks" to name just one... really makes DP the best platform for music for TV/Film. Everyone I talk to who's in the know and has used other DAWs in this capacity, confirms this. I think DP is very much the front runner in that area with many well-known film composers using it.

This is also why although adding plug-ins that mimic stomp boxes are one thing, in today's society where people are so concerned about feeling validated by knowing someone they respect is also using a particular software app, I'd like to see MOTU do more video user profiles featuring BANDS that record with DP. One I know of is Brad Gillis from Night Ranger. He played a solo on a song of mine and he's a longtime DP user who also writes music cues of EPSN, etc. And if Night Ranger isn't hip with the young kids, track down one of the newer bands that's recording in DP and profile them. Sadly, it's not about who has the BEST DAW anymore, you have to make it "cool" to use it. That's much of the appeal of Pro Tools, IMHO. It's the "safe" choice. You're in "the club." Brilliant marketing by Digidesign, initially, to create that aura/image. Reminds me of the days of the dumbed-down ProTools LE. Kids running PT LE in their bedrooms were smug about it!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Chunks. Hate the name. Love the feature. There is no other way to work for me.

[mhschmieder]

Without chunks, I don't know how I'd be able to mix this metal album I'm working on for my housemate. He's constantly amazed at how easily I can compare settings and cut/paste tracks, settings, etc. (yes, we can also do this via clippings, but with less semantic context).

[Michael Canavan]

Also, MAS plugins process at 32 bits floating point. I simply do not know if AU offers that, or if your audio goes through a truncation when going through AU plugins. Seems unlikely that AU would diminish the capabilities of DP, so I'm hoping it also works at 32 bits FP.

Since there are plenty of audio units that market themselves as having 64bit floating point precision etc. I'm going to guess that AU supports that, VST too.

Anyway, MAS was and is a great format. Its fall from grace was mostly due to the popularity of AU, because of its ubiquity in OS X, and because of the massive widespread adoption of Logic by Apple users after the acquisition. Logic was a 2nd tier DAW with a niche market. It's taken years for a lot of people to figure that out, and even with top-to-bottom redesigns to make it easier for people outside that niche, Logic remains an app that requires more effort for the amount of musicality that you derive from it. I'm guessing that Vienna has also realized that.

MAS is and was a format for one DAW, AU was meant to be for any and All DAWs on OSX, it's only the fact that Steinberg aren't giving up the VST format anytime soon, plus Pro Tools and it's proprietary formats etc. IMO that it didn't happen. It was IMO pretty cool of MOTU to adopt the format, too bad the other two big players at the time didn't! We would probably see a lot more attention given to AU by Appel if they had.

I sincerely think the constant Logic bashing on Motunation is a low point in discussions on things like AU etc. It taints the conversation. there are dozens of points that I could make in favor of Logic over DP in terms of usability, it's not a black and white issue and Logic is in no way a second tier DAW. It's similar to what KVR was like about Macs years ago, where any mention of DP or Logic had someone dogging Apple. I mean I get it, KVR was mostly Windows users 8 years ago, and MOTUnation is rabidly pro DP, but it's not a war. Logic certainly can't win all people over. I'm fluent in it and choose DP, but I would use Logic if DP didn't exist.

Maybe MOTU found it easier to market MachFive without having to make it work with all formats. Just a guess.

Yeah it's a strange one. I tend to think they thought Apple was going to update AU spec soon, and to our advantage Audio Ease, VSL realized it wasn't worth it to wait for that ship to come in.

As for why Vienna chose MAS over VST3, you'd have to ask them. They're pretty particular when it comes to sound. Maybe they discovered what many suspected all along: MAS was always the best audio engine out there, but lost to mediocrity in a popularity contest.

Or even more to the point, DP8 doesn't support VST3 plug ins, only VST 2, if you're going to fix issues in DP now, you want to choose a format DP can use now.

[Shooshie]

I sincerely think the constant Logic bashing on Motunation is a low point in discussions on things like AU etc. It taints the conversation. there are dozens of points that I could make in favor of Logic over DP in terms of usability, it's not a black and white issue and Logic is in no way a second tier DAW. It's similar to what KVR was like about Macs years ago, where any mention of DP or Logic had someone dogging Apple. I mean I get it, KVR was mostly Windows users 8 years ago, and MOTUnation is rabidly pro DP, but it's not a war. Logic certainly can't win all people over. I'm fluent in it and choose DP, but I would use Logic if DP didn't exist.

You have your opinions; I have mine. I adopted Logic and studied it for a year with the manual open and the index in constant use. It has a lot of features, but the basics — the ones that count — are rudely implemented. Let me put it this way. If DP and Logic were dancers, Logic is a dancing bear. It can be fun, entertaining, interesting, and a lot of things, but in the end it's a dancing bear and Garageband is its cub. DP is Baryshnikov. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but that it's basic features are elegant to use and produce elegant results with little effort. If DP didn't exist, I wouldn't use Logic.

No, it's not a war; it's just opinions. We were talking about adoption of standards. Logic was the wild-card that got thrown into the mix when the standards were being adopted. It became popular not because of its ease of use or any of its features, but because a) it was "Apple's DAW", and everyone on a Mac likes to use Apple software, and b) it's Garageband Sr. Innocent people assumed it was a good choice, because it was Apple's. This was at least one example where Apple really screwed up. Since those days, it HAS improved, but its awkward design by programmers for programmers remains underneath the new interface and the bells and whistles.

As for why Vienna chose MAS over VST3, let's just say "VST" and not haggle over versions. I don't keep up with VST. Someone posed the question; I merely said that only Vienna knows why they made that choice.

The choice to adopt the AU format was pretty much a life and death choice by MOTU. I really don't know if DP would have survived without it. After OS X emerged, few if any new developers chose to use MAS. Without access to the best plugins, DP would have been marginalized. The early days of OS X were hard on DP. It was slow and cumbersome, which IMO was caused by their admirable determination to keep MAS and run it atop (or without?) Core Audio. DAWs that ran natively in Core Audio and MIDI were agile, though maybe not as fully featured. DP's operations and identity were too tied up with MAS to remap everything to Core Audio. If they had done that, we'd see no MAS plugins, and there would be no MAS audio engine in it today. It took computers getting faster, along with a lot of clever rewrites and tricks to get DP optimized to run as fast as it does today.

At DP's lowest ebb, around 4.5, I bought Logic and began preparing for the worst. After a year of it, I decided that sticking with DP was better than using Logic, no matter what the circumstances. Getting what I wanted out of Logic took too much work, plus it crashed a lot. DP rarely crashed, and it was designed by musicians, for musicians.

It's all part of the same story. Logic doesn't affect me now, but there was a time when it really seemed like there WAS a war, and that Apple was determined to put MOTU out of the DAW business. If Logic had been a better product, I might have resented Apple less for it, but to pretend that such an app could take the place of DP was a bad joke. People who say "they all do the same things in the end" probably don't know the finer points of DP, but if they believe that's true, then... well... at least they live in bliss.

Shooshie

[Michael Canavan]

It has a lot of features, but the basics — the ones that count — are rudely implemented. Let me put it this way. If DP and Logic were dancers, Logic is a dancing bear. It can be fun, entertaining, interesting, and a lot of things, but in the end it's a dancing bear and Garageband is its cub. DP is Baryshnikov. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but that it's basic features are elegant to use and produce elegant results with little effort. If DP didn't exist, I wouldn't use Logic.

Hmm? You say that a lot, but I don't get much input from you on what you mean. I will say that I started in Performer, but the period of time that I used Logic, 2000-05 made it so that when I came back to DP things seemed really awkward for quite a while, years even. The workflow in DP is so vastly different that Logic that is was a struggle to get used to DP. Didn't you get Logic Express if I recall? That was a really half rate version of Logic in every way.

No, it's not a war; it's just opinions. We were talking about adoption of standards. Logic was the wild-card that got thrown into the mix when the standards were being adopted. It became popular not because of its ease of use or any of its features, but because a) it was "Apple's DAW", and everyone on a Mac likes to use Apple software, and b) it's Garageband Sr. Innocent people assumed it was a good choice, because it was Apple's. This was at least one example where Apple really screwed up. Since those days, it HAS improved, but its awkward design by programmers for programmers remains underneath the new interface and the bells and whistles.

Logic; Cubase; Pro Tools; DP, (to a lesser extent Cakewalk), these were the major DAWs in 2000. Logic was a big player before Apple bought them, period. That Logic became 'the' standard was certainly due to Apples purchase, no doubt.

As for why Vienna chose MAS over VST3, let's just say "VST" and not haggle over versions. I don't keep up with VST. Someone posed the question; I merely said that only Vienna knows why they made that choice.

?? VSL have used VST from day one. It is the single most used format in plug ins.
VST3 is being ultra slow to adoption by plug in developers and other DAWs besides Cubase, DP doesn't support VST3 and it was already out before they added VST support.

The choice to adopt the AU format was pretty much a life and death choice by MOTU. I really don't know if DP would have survived without it. After OS X emerged, few if any new developers chose to use MAS. Without access to the best plugins, DP would have been marginalized. The early days of OS X were hard on DP. It was slow and cumbersome, which IMO was caused by their admirable determination to keep MAS and run it atop (or without?) Core Audio. DAWs that ran natively in Core Audio and MIDI were agile, though maybe not as fully featured. DP's operations and identity were too tied up with MAS to remap everything to Core Audio. If they had done that, we'd see no MAS plugins, and there would be no MAS audio engine in it today. It took computers getting faster, along with a lot of clever rewrites and tricks to get DP optimized to run as fast as it does today.

All DAWs run their own audio engine code. Logic doesn't run a 'Core Audio' engine internally, it uses the Core Audio hooks to access audio cards and run AU plug ins. When Logic was running in OS9 you mostly used ASIO drivers for audio cards in Logic. There was no way in hell that Emagic Logic was going to write it's audio engine around a Steinberg standard, they just used that standard when talking to the outside world, I recall DP being able to use ASIO as well.

That, was my point about MAS being an internal engine in DP, it's not like they have to rewrite the who software to work with Core Audio, and in no way is Core Audio (for straight audio anyway) going to offer less, more than MAS in terms of workability. Now Audio Units is a different story, Apple have forgotten about them, VST2.4 has better implementation than AU in some ways, and with the poor adoption of VST3 Apple seem to be just keeping up with the Jonses. I still use AU over VST most of the time though.

At DP's lowest ebb, around 4.5, I bought Logic and began preparing for the worst. After a year of it, I decided that sticking with DP was better than using Logic, no matter what the circumstances. Getting what I wanted out of Logic took too much work, plus it crashed a lot. DP rarely crashed, and it was designed by musicians, for musicians.

It's all part of the same story. Logic doesn't affect me now, but there was a time when it really seemed like there WAS a war, and that Apple was determined to put MOTU out of the DAW business. If Logic had been a better product, I might have resented Apple less for it, but to pretend that such an app could take the place of DP was a bad joke. People who say "they all do the same things in the end" probably don't know the finer points of DP, but if they believe that's true, then... well... at least they live in bliss.

OK at 4.5 I can't be blamed for you purchasing Logic. I didn't upgrade DP until 5.3 or so.
Again, it sounds like you purchased Express, Logic Express is a joke. All the pro features that make a DAW fun to use are missing.

Part of the problem is to really learn any DAW worth it's salt you have to know all the arcane tricks and key commands, this is true of all the big players. DP isn't half as useful if you don't, neither is Logic, and there's an example of a slightly better feature DP should adopt, in Logic when you select key commands with the window open it scrolls and highlights the associated action, in DP you have to choose a key command you want to implement, then run through dialog boxes telling you "Command,shift, 6 is used by X, do you want to replace or use both?" Finding unused key commands is much easier in Logic.

I do think it was a screwy move on Apples part to adopt a DAW then try to force a single platform standard on the cross platform plug in world. They would have had waaaay more converts had they developed a cross platform standard and actively developed it with MOTU, Emagic, Steinberg etc.

[Shooshie]

Didn't you get Logic Express if I recall? That was a really half rate version of Logic in every way. ...
OK at 4.5 I can't be blamed for you purchasing Logic. I didn't upgrade DP until 5.3 or so.
Again, it sounds like you purchased Express, Logic Express is a joke. All the pro features that make a DAW fun to use are missing.

Part of the problem is to really learn any DAW worth it's salt you have to know all the arcane tricks and key commands, this is true of all the big players. DP isn't half as useful if you don't, neither is Logic, and there's an example of a slightly better feature DP should adopt, in Logic when you select key commands with the window open it scrolls and highlights the associated action, in DP you have to choose a key command you want to implement, then run through dialog boxes telling you "Command,shift, 6 is used by X, do you want to replace or use both?" Finding unused key commands is much easier in Logic.

I actually have Logic Studio, which came in a box about 8" x 10". It also came with MainStage and WaveBurner, the latter of which became my favorite CD mastering app until they abandoned it.

For the things that I usually criticize in Logic, I had repeated, lengthy conversations with a number of seasoned Logic users whom I'd hoped would enlighten me on the "real" way to do these things. Unfortunately, what they told me was always the same thing I had read in the manual and already learned. What they thought was a fabulous set of tools for editing MIDI turned out to be mediocre at best. DP's tools and workflow are luxurious by comparison. I learned multiple ways to do each thing in Logic, but none of them compared with DP's.

You'll have to forgive me for not going into specifics, because I no longer remember each point or how it played out in Logic. I just remember the frustration I felt, always thinking that I MUST be missing something, because everyone says it's so great, and yet I haven't found the "great" method yet. Finally, I realized that I'd found the "great" method the first day in the manual. What I kept asking people was silly, given that I already knew the answers. I just thought surely someone would explain the "great" one if I kept asking and found the right person. What I was hoping for, simply wasn't there.

I can tell you that some of the areas that were troubling were:

• • MIDI editing tools (DP's drawing tools put Logic's to shame)
  • Record beats and adjust beats (mapping the barlines to the performance)
  • editing precise phrases in velocities and/or controllers
  • multiple tracks per instrument
  • turning off regions to make selections easier and without complications

Logic did all these things, and to someone not accustomed to DP, it probably seems adequate. I even understand why Logic users may find DP hard to use, or deficient. Like you said, you have to know where to look and devise workflows for tasks. Again, I sought advice from multiple users on each of those points, on top of studying the manuals, help files, and just experimenting, searching for menus, dialogs, etc. I'm convinced that I found the preferred methods for each of those tasks in Logic. Sometimes there are multiple windows that can accomplish the same tasks. But I never found it to be as well-implemented as DP's. Everything felt coarse. Priorities in Logic were simply different from those in DP.

Shooshie

PS: the Logic equivalent of DP's Commands window WAS indeed brilliant. I'd love to have that in DP.

[bayswater]

The Logic vs DP debate has no possible conclusion. I'm happy that both have become a lot better over the last couple of years.

What I'd pay to see: a live debate between Shooshie and Eli Krantzberg. It would settle noting but would be pretty informative and entertaining.

[James Steele]

[I sincerely think the constant Logic bashing on Motunation is a low point in discussions on things like AU etc. It taints the conversation. there are dozens of points that I could make in favor of Logic over DP in terms of usability, it's not a black and white issue and Logic is in no way a second tier DAW.

As the owner of this forum I'm frequently lectured by people who "bash" DP about how they have a right to express their opinion. I've done nothing but express mine about Logic. I don't need to repeat those opinions here... I've already stated them. And if it is relevant to the conversation I will likely do in the future, whether anyone thinks it's bashing or not.

[James Steele]

Oh... and that was ME who had Logic Express 7 about the time that DP6 was released. Now, maybe that was a bad version or whatever, but I clearly remember it said LOGIC on the outside of the box, so that's what I have to go on. That's a PR problem for Apple then... it's not my problem. I found some cool things, but I also found many things that were confusing and took longer to do than DP. And was the user interface itself much different between the full and Express versions?

[Shooshie]

One more thing...

Logic; Cubase; Pro Tools; DP, (to a lesser extent Cakewalk), these were the major DAWs in 2000. Logic was a big player before Apple bought them, period. That Logic became 'the' standard was certainly due to Apples purchase, no doubt.

From about 1992 through 2001, the major DAWs were (in no particular order):

• Mac:
  Studio-Vision
  Digital Performer
  Pro Tools (audio only)
  PC:
  Cubase
  Cakewalk

These are what I considered the 1st tier apps of the time.

In addition to those, there were at various points in the timeline:

• Live
  Acid
  Sonar
  Nuendo
  Logic
  Max
  and others

These were what I called the 2nd tier. They were not widely used, then, but each had its niche, and those who worked within said niches loved these apps. For traditional scoring and performance, these were not as well-rounded as those in the 1st tier. Some would say that Nuendo, Logic, or Sonar were 1st tier DAWs. I wouldn't argue, really, but if you were hanging out in the break room of studios of the 1990s, talking about digital audio workstations, you were talking about the ones in my "first tier" list. The others were "have you heard about Sonar?" or "I know a guy who uses Logic. Did you ever see that thing?" People thought Logic was just too abstract. It didn't feel like something associated with music. Max, on the other hand, was revered in awe by all who knew its reputation, but I never met anyone who actually still used it.

Generally, when we were talking about MIDI and audio in the same app, the two apps we were comparing were StudioVision and Digital Performer. The PC guy who used Cakewalk was usually kind of quiet. Of course, if you were only talking about audio, Pro-Tools was king. Getting clients to let you use Digital Performer, even in 2002, was an uphill battle. On occasion I was known to say "give me one day to do a rough mix. If you don't like it, it's free." I never lost a gig that way.

So, Logic users may have considered themselves on top of the world, but they weren't spending much time in the studio, where it was usually considered an oddity.