From PT to DP 8

[JCDC]

Hi, I´m a newbie here!

This is an very interesting forum! I have been a Pro Tools and a Mac guy for many years, recording and mixing (but mostly Wavelab for mastering).
Now I would like to start composing and arranging my own things (about time), and I´ve been looking for a new DAW. It seems to me that I´m too stuck with the mixing things with PT and actually have a hard time doing any kind of composition and orchestration in this DAW. Not because I don´t know how to use it or like it, but it doesn´t invite me to do some creative new things. Very strange, but I just fall back into my mix and mastering thinking, I guess with the engineering eyes and ears.
Well, I was thinking of getting DP8 or LogicX, but I´m an older guy that have been spending years and years to get to know PT (even though there are many more things to discover in PT) and it sort of turns me off to start from the beginning (almost at least) again.

But in theory at least, I think it might be a new fresh start for me to learn one (or both..hopefully not) new DAW. I will use it mostly for MIDI (composing, orchestrate, MIDI mockups, ie lot´s of editing etc). Then I can always export it to PT when it´s time to mix and master too keep PT alive if so. I think this anyhow sound nice.

I have downloaded the trial version of DP8 and been fooling around a bit. Very different layout than PT, and for me almost difficult to sit too long without getting tired in my eyes and I also have a hard time to really see everything that´s om the screen, everything is so small..(age perhaps). But I guess it´s the same with Logic and that I have to live with this if changing DAW. I have two 19´screens at the moment, and maybe I can get some windows floating and expand and use the screens in a better way than right now. For now I´m not into Cubase or or any other DAW, and have DP or Logic as my alternatives.

I been at Groove3 and Macprovideo to check out some good tutorials, but I just can´t stand tutorials that I can not follow along (also means that I can download whatever the instructor is working on and follow along/hands on all the time). It seems that Groove has (for the first time I suppose) a downloadable file for the LogicX Tutorial, but not for DP. Lynda.com always have downloadable files which is really great (and usually also good instructors) - but they don´t have anything on DP at the moment.

So if trying to get into DP I hoped that maybe someone at this forum might have an idea where to start (I guess this has been discussed here, but I probably have missed it). Does anyone know any books etc with either downloads of practicing files or dvd, or just dvd´s with practice files included? I really like to work/study with some kind of music (if possible also some orchestral stuff)and be able to get my "hands on", step by step. I just don't function with the tutorials I´ve seen and tried, almost always the same, just the technical aspects but never anything to do with what I´m going to use the DAW (ie tool)for. Anyhow, this was a long story. But I´m so fed up with tutorials that I can´t follow along, and that so often is made by clever people, but very seldom musicians, composers etc.
As said Groove3 has one with some project files for LogicX, as far as I know the first one- but I can for sure be wrong. But it would be too bad if only this would make me go for Logic.
I would be really greatful if anyone in this nice forum have some ideas about this. I´m not too kind of the "fast" learning things on for ex YouTube, but maybe there are some places there that can offer things like this.
Just a nice tutorial, covering all the basic (and maybe more) in a stepwise fashion with a lot of files and to be able to follow along.
I guess I could have put this in one or two sentences, sorry about that.
Thanks anyhow for reading through!

[bayswater]

I'll just point out that Groove3 has two very good tutorials on DP 8, both of which you CAN download. MOTU also has a series of short videos on Vimeo that are very informative on how to do specific tasks.

As for DP 8 versus Logic X, I have and use both. Logic X is pretty buggy although it doesn't actually crash much. It's easy to get simple stuff done, but not so much for the more complicated things. DP in its current version is quite a bit more reliable IMO. And it follows are more traditional model for both audio and MIDI, so if you're well versed in the basics, it will come more naturally.

[dosuna11]

Magic Dave is a true MOTU Guru
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=52216

The Tips board is full of stuff.

[monkey man]

Hang in there, JCDC, and welcome, brother.

Why not try making the tracks (and font) larger in the main (Tracks Overview) window and (I think) the sequence and MIDI edit windows by clicking on the "+" sign?

Also, I dare say a good ol' fiddle with DP's stock "themes" (preferences window - you'll find 'em) should help with legibility and glare; it's simply a matter of finding a theme that suits you. Typically there'll be a number of 'em you'll be able to live with. Some may be better suited to edit window/s while you might prefer others for the mixing board. It's a matter of continuously switching themes or finding a compromise. I recommend the latter.

[Phil O]

...I will use it mostly for MIDI (composing, orchestrate, MIDI mockups, ie lot´s of editing etc). Then I can always export it to PT when it´s time to mix and master too keep PT alive if so....

You may want to consider a separate notation program that easily exports MIDI files. I use Finale, not because I think it's the best but because it's what I started with and got used to it. Others here more into composing may have better suggestions.

As far as mixing is concerned, I think you'll find DP has workflow advantages over PT. I've used both and although there are a couple of features in PT that I really like, when I look at the big picture I prefer working in DP hands down. The transition may be a little painful because the learning curve is steep, but once you get to know what DP can do, you'll never look back.

Phil

[JCDC]

Hi and thanks for the answers!
Well, I know I can download tutorials if so ( I have them streaming btw), but I more asked for tutorials where I can download a project file (audio etc) and follow along, step by step and as said hands on. Nothing like that i Groove or MacproV, These guys are not musicians, composers etc (as far as I can understand from the tutorials), but intelligent people that unfortunately can´t transfer in the way I hoped for. But that´s me for sure. I have started to check out the DP 7 course in MacProVideo and it´s somewhat ok. Pretty good pace, but in the DP8 course I don´t know what has happend with the guy. More "Thanks to Muto, thanks to Muto" all the way, and also a change of attitue that I don´t like anyhow.
I´ve been going through the "Start up Guide" and maybe this is the best way to go to see if this is something I can manage (ie, one more DAW)

Regarding the small windows it seems to me that they can´t be made bigger unfortunately, but I just tried to change my screen settings to see things more clearly, and it seems to work a bit better.

Ok, moving on! Logic is much easier to start with and Very impressive, but maybe to much blabla (to much of everything sort of). In DP I guess everything is there, just to figure it out etc. Something tells me DP is the way, but I´m not sure yet.
Thanks,
JC

[bayswater]

These guys are not musicians, composers etc

Eli Krantzberg will be disappointed to hear this.

[Nibiru]

I started on DP waaaaaaaaay back in 1998, I believe right as it became "Digital" Performer,, from simply "Performer". My mentor at the time, former live bassist for Prince and the sickest bass player I've ever been in the presence of (Jackie Robinson R.I.P.), turned me on to DP. I've used the manual a handful of times, mainly to look up what the hell the "dither" option did, bc it never really sank in. I've used every single DAW since. Pro tools is the closest, but still can't hold a flame to DP. Logic, and really all of em imho, used DP as a benchmark, and copied. I feel like the learning curve in DP is much easier than pretty much all of the rest. Just spend a day familiarizing yourself and you will wonder why you didn't make the switch sooner. I've been using Ableton for 1 project recently...wtf the hype is about is beyond me. Some features are amazing like warping and the clips feature, but if DP implemented these features, there'd be no reason why anyone shouldn't convert, just based on being an inspiring tool alone. Try to set up a quickly a parallel chain in Logic vs DP...nuff said.

[Shooshie]

Logic is much easier to start with and Very impressive, but maybe to much blabla (to much of everything sort of). In DP I guess everything is there, just to figure it out etc. Something tells me DP is the way, but I´m not sure yet.

Bob built birdhouses. It was hard, slow work, but he managed to crank out a few each week. One day, a nice Japanese man gave him a robot to try out. Robin Robot was programmed to build birdhouses, order supplies, keep the shop straight, clean up the mess, and put ads on the internet for birdhouses, then to ship them.

Business was great! Bob only had to tell Robin to begin each day, and to give it big-picture directives while working. Bob drank coffee, read newsfeeds on his iPad, and manicured his lawn. Each birdhouse was the work of a master craftsman, but Bob had started wondering if it was really HIS craftsmanship. The market had grown so much for Bob's Birdhouses that people were asking for different kinds in different sizes, colors, shapes and styles. Other birdhouse builders were already producing those. So, Bob went to a corner of the shop and started working on some new styles. He'd created some beautiful new and artistic, modern birdhouses when he decided to go out to lunch.

When he returned, his new artistic birdhouses were smashed and in the garbage with the rest of the trash, and in their place were another half-dozen of his standard birdhouses. Robin Robot was programmed to make working easy, not to learn new styles. So, Bob read the instructions and tried to reprogram Robin to build his new styles. Just changing the paint color became a huge problem, not to mention the size of the holes, the shape of the roof, or the faux-modern patios he wanted to put on them. Robin kept trying to build the standard birdhouses, and Bob was getting more and more frustrated trying to change it up. The orders kept coming in, but there were no new birdhouses.

By the end of the week, Robin Robot lay out on the curb by the street in a bucket, blown to bits by a full clip from Bob's 45 automatic pistol. Inside his shop, Bob was happily wielding his hammer, saws, and other tools, building modern-looking birdhouses, one-by-one, whistling a bit of bebop.

In DAWs, like birdhouses, sometimes you just need to be able to get your hands dirty to get what you want. When automation and custom artistry meet, you're liable to find a bucket of bits, bolts and bullets out by the street.

Shooshie

[monkey man]

Dang. Guess that's the end of the MonkeyLabs™ AutoBirdhouseBot™ project. Thanks, Shoosh.

Shooshie eloquently made a critical point in my humble opinion - DP was never intended for the lazy, but the creative. Perhaps more specifically for those in that subset who do sweat details and care for "total" ownership of their "product". To the greatest practical extent, DP allows the artist full control in decision making, without flirting with the realms of geekdom.

I like to say that the price of a soft pillow is a clear conscience. I know I'll sleep better if at the end of a day I'm mid-project, still tweaking' towards some sort of representation of my true self, than if I'd completed two colour-by-numbers toons, even if they turned out to be hittoons. For me at least, the goal to "be true unto thyself" is paramount.

DP is the closest thing that I'm aware of to a perfect tool for this purpose.

EDIT:

... in the DP8 course I don´t know what has happend with the guy. More "Thanks to Muto, thanks to Muto" all the way...

Well, I think I know what happened to him - he couldn't handle the temporal and spacial demands of vowels.

[Tritonemusic]

DP was never intended for the lazy, but the creative. Perhaps more specifically for those in that subset who do sweat details and care for "total" ownership of their "product". To the greatest practical extent, DP allows the artist full control in decision making, without flirting with the realms of geekdom.

That was beautifully worded, Mr. Monkey Man.

[monkey man]

Thank you, Oh Radekal One.

I did sweat the details of that post, ironically, and am quite proud of it, just quietly.

[JCDC]

Thanks for replying! I do not really understand what the last posts have to do with my question, but I appreciate taking the time to post. I have no problem in sweating, this is what I have been doing the past 30 years. Practicing my intrument apr 4-5 hours every day for about 15 years and then just a few hours more or less everyday from that, graduated from Berklee in composition and arranging (inkl filmscoring and recording) and been studying harmony, composition and arranging for the past decades. As written I struggled with Pro Tools for many years to be able to get it to fit into my hands, and still do. But because being out on the road as a drummer and percussionist (jazz, pop, rock etc) all over Europe and in the US the past 20 years or so, there has not been so much time off to get into compose and arrange myselves. I have composed and produces quite a few Jingle stuff, etc but I gues this was not my thing I suppose (at least not the guys running the PR stuff), and some documentaries for tv. For apr 7 years I have been doing mixing and mastering (and restauration work on as ex old vinyls), after trying to understand the program myself and also after been taken the PT, mastering and Audio Post courses at Berklee. I´ve also worked a lot with Wavelab (as my mastering DAW) and also studied privately for a great mastering guy in Germany on location etc . So, I´ve been sweating to trying to get things to happend, also sitting up all nights long trying to figure out the DAW and the best way for me to get thing going.
Now I thought it might be nice to get into another DAW (why explained in the first post) to see if I can get into writing music and incl some orchestral things, this before getting to old.. After teaching music theory and arranging for many years (not any longer) I realize that my students had much easier to get into therory etc (and to do something with it) if I always could show some sounding musical examples. I know for myself that I learn much better this whay (my knowledge in for ex music theory is much higher than I can perform or even hear from time to time).
Thats why I was trying to ask if someone know some tutorials on DP that also have some music examples to be able to follow along, and not just watch. This is the way I think works best from me and thats why the question. I don´t understand some of the suggestions in earlier posts, besides that to sweat etc is the way. Sure, but to randomly sweat with a program that has been developed for so many years, trying to figure out the way to use it only this way is not what I have time for (or never really liked even though this seems to be the way for many these days). Besides the basic knowledge of how the programs works ( and continuously checking out the users guide and more) I would like to work with music examples (and use/learn whatever it needs accoringly) and also to be reminded that the program itself is not the thing, it´s a tool and what you can do with it is what counts. For sure I´ve studing the users guide, checked out stuff on the net at not at least just trying things out. But besides that I still wonder if there are some tutorials with sounding examples to follow along. But, according to what the post have been about, it might be wise for me to try out another Daw and hope for the better. I can´t find anything at least today.
But while deciding I will go on for a while going through the Users quick start manual and the users guide (10 days left on the Demo). Not to much music there, but a lot of information for sure:). I might as well check the Logic Forum and put the same question there, but I will for shure cut down the amounts of words. Here it was too may from my side, sorry about that. Thanks.

[bayswater]

I guess people are just pointing out that DP is fairly deep and takes a bit of time to figure out. It also takes time to develop your own work flow, depending on what sort of work you do. As for musical examples, I don't recall the specifics, but Eli's tutorials at Groove3 usually involve the development of a song end to end. He ain't quite up there with Sir Paul, but you get the point.

But also consider that there are a lot of successful composers here who happily share the way they use DP, and that's worth any number of tutorials.

[JCDC]

Thanks! Sounds great and I will hang in here for a while:), still got the 10 days left on the Demo.
It´s always some kind of musical examples in whatever tutorial as far as I know, some maybe not to convincing. But besides Lynda.com (and Eli´s tutorial at Groove3 on Logic which he seems to dig) ther are a no files to download to be able to follow along what I know.