Audio Units vs. VST revisited

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:05 am

I tried several search terms but couldn't find the previous topic on this subject.

Due to how many of Arturia's revised VI's failed DP's AU Test, I revisited the question of AU vs. VST tonight, after first switching all Plug&Mix and Arturia plug-ins to VST format from AU (since several from each vendor failed AU tests).

I may have to back out of this decision to save time, as I use Arturia VI's a LOT, and would now have to replace all plug-in instances and reassign parameters/etc. The ones that failed were: Wurlitzer V; Oberheim SEM V; Analog Lab. The PM plug that failed (a long time ago) was Multi-Tap Delay.

Anyway, after some on-line searches, I found this interesting statement from someone who appears knowledgeable. As it is against forum rules to cut/paste from other sources, but as this feedback could help a lot of people, I am rephrasing and congealing the essence of the original response:

"VST is not universal; it is a proprietary format but was reverse engineered and became commonplace. It is neither a standard nor open platform or open source. Large parts of the spec are undocumented and known only to its vendor. 3rd-party developers (e.g. NI) built custom extensions; some with wild deviations from the spec.

DAW's can control some, but not all, parameters on some VST plugs, leading to glitches and compatibility issues.

AU is an open standard."

This is an EXTREMELY recent post based on the latest status, but is just one source of information. A four year older post at another location claims that AU always wraps VST, and someone else refuted that and says it rarely if ever wraps VST and that most vendors write common code and then wrap in one or the other at the end of the process. I have my doubts.

What I can say with certainty, is that one of the error messages produces by the Arturia AU plugs was that the VST couldn't be found. The VST plugs themselves produced a gazillion errors and time-outs during validation, but did at least pass.

It's too late, and I'm too tired to think on this any more tonight. I've already lost a lot of time last night and tonight, and it's delaying an album release. I think I'll top back to AU, with VST only for AU's that fail. That includes the recent update of TimewARP 2600 from SONiVOX (not sure what happened to Way Out Ware and also their KikAXXE product).

Hopefully this can start a useful discussion that we all learn from, at least.

Sorry I've been absent the past month or so and that I couldn't take the time to catch up first. I've been blazing full-steam ahead at my day job (maximum overtime) and several album projects. I really haven't had time for internet activities in a long time.

groove · Post by **groove** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:04 am

I had the same problem with Wurli and Oberheim after updating my V collection to V4. They were previously working fine in AU. Instead of switching to VST, I deleted the stand alone versions and the plugins of the two culprit. I then reinstalled them from their individual Installer. DP AU tested positive after that.

Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk

bayswater · Post by **bayswater** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:31 am

Would OS versions have anything to do with AU validation failures? When I went to 10.01, I had a lot of AUs fail (in Logic, of all places, more so than DP). I gave up on a few old obscure free plugins, but found that simply running the validation a second time worked in most cases.

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:11 pm

Interesting. Due to lots of installation problems (almost all due to my SSD almost being full, and the Arturia installers not letting you select another drive at installation time, for the Spark and Analog Lab libraries), I went to the individual installers as well, but I just realized I only deleted the standalone versions vs. the plug-in versions and did that vs. uninstall them (was afraid the latter action would delete my license keys).

I figure this will get worked out shortly, as V Collection 4 is very new (1 DEC 2014). Not sure why Plug & Mix's Multi-Tap Delay has failed for quite some time now. I informed SONiVOX about TimewARP 2600's issues, but my recollection is they said I was the only one who had had problems. It was sort of a courtesy that they did an update anyway, and it still doesn't solve the extreme volume issues completely (I usually have to trim that plug by 36 dB or more!) -- though things did improve somewhat.

I do have a personal preference for AU over VST, and not just for historical reasons: I like the preset system, as I prefer to save my project-oriented settings at the AU level vs. making User Presets for the plug-in itself. I've had better luck with these carrying over between versions of a plug-in and not getting stepped on by installers.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:16 pm

mhschmieder wrote:Interesting. Due to lots of installation problems (almost all due to my SSD almost being full...

Precisely why I haven't made the jump to SSD yet. Add to that the confusion about drive maintenance and cost (at this point) and I remain unconvinced that SSDs are worth the headache. What would I be saving in terms of time? A few seconds here and there? And the reward being problems because the drives I need are in the 2-3TB range and too expensive.

I know this is off topic, but it's not really. If SSD limitations are cause of the problem, it is very much on topic.

I'm really sorry you are having these issues. man. It's what we try to avoid!

mikehalloran · Post by **mikehalloran** » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:44 pm

Now that 480mb SSDs have broken $200 and 960mb have broken the $400 price point, capacity isn't the issue anymore. You were right to wait this long. Crucial M500 are $181 and $329 respectively.
http://eshop.macsales.com/search/crucial

The recent price reductions are indicating we will see 2T capacities soon. OWC has already announced a 2T blade for the nMP. Will there be a 2T PCIe blade for the older MP? I don't know but the fastest drives are the current PCIe.

If you are concerned about the Trim issues on non-Apple units running Yosemite (I am not but there are issues), you can use Trim Enabler on one of your spinners, boot from it once a month and use it to Trim your boot SSD like any maintenance utility–you would have to be running intense read/write sessions to run it any sooner on a drive under 85% full. Anyway, I have tried it and it works, taking a minute or two.

What would I be saving in terms of time?

The only thing in DP I have seen a dramatic improvement is Bounce to Disk. It happens so quickly that I cannot time it. At first I thought there was a bug and it wasn't working (the window would disappear as soon as I began) – then I checked my Bounces folder to find them done.

Everything else? I start the morning opening 50-70 tabs in two browser windows on two monitors. This took 15-20 minutes for everything to load so I avoided rebooting if possible. Unfortunately, certain processes work best if I reboot every day. Now, I fire up my iMac and reboot leaving my browser and other apps open. This morning, I timed it at 18 seconds (must be the weather as it is usually faster).

Running eSATA on my 2010 iMac, I have the exact 3G buss limit as an SATA drive on your MP. PCIe blades that break the 6G limit are available to you but not to me. The price/performance of those Crucial SATA drives is hard to ignore even if your MP limits them to 3G.*

I had every intention of replacing my iMac this year. That decision has pushed it out till the end of next year or further. I feel I have a new machine.

*PCIe - SATA cards are available that let you get 6G speeds from SATA SSDs - still not available to me. I don't know what 2x blazing fast does in the real world–blazing fast works for me.

David Polich · Post by **David Polich** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:00 am

Just as a point of information…the Arturia installers don't overwrite the older versions of the plug-ins automatically (unlike iK Multimedia installers, which give you the option to first uninstall the old versions).

To properly install Arturia plug-ins, you have to first remove the older versions from your components and VST folders. To be safe, I always put the old versions in a folder called "Old Arturia" in case I need to put them back for some reason.

If your older Arturia plug-ins referenced licenses on a Syncrosoft key, those licenses will not be seen by the newest versions, which do not reference Syncrosoft licenses. Be sure to use the Arturia Software Center to authorize the new versions.

Btw, two of the Arturia guys are answering questions about the latest V4 Arturia plug-ins over at (the dreaded) Gearslutz.com. One of the things they confirmed is that Matrix 12-V does have a bug where some notes cut out on polyphony-heavy patches, and they are working on a fix.

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:06 am

Yep, I uninstalled the old versions first, and moved the licenses to a separate eLicenser dongle that I reserve for expired demos and the like.

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:57 am

mikehalloran wrote:If you are concerned about the Trim issues on non-Apple units running Yosemite (I am not but there are issues), you can use Trim Enabler on one of your spinners, boot from it once a month and use it to Trim your boot SSD like any maintenance utility...

Do you need to do this? I have it installed on my boot SSD with Yosemite and it's active.

mikehalloran · Post by **mikehalloran** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:20 pm

James Steele wrote:
mikehalloran wrote:If you are concerned about the Trim issues on non-Apple units running Yosemite (I am not but there are issues), you can use Trim Enabler on one of your spinners, boot from it once a month and use it to Trim your boot SSD like any maintenance utility...
Do you need to do this? I have it installed on my boot SSD with Yosemite and it's active.

As have I. TRIM Enable is my friend. Just don't reset the NV RAM (PRAM) without disabling TRIM ... but you know that already. Also, you have to re enable TRIM after every OS update ... again no problem.

There are people for whom this is a deep, dark, murky, incomprehensible issue that must be avoided because they don't understand. For them, enabling TRIM on a utility/repair drive, even a spinner, and booting from it once every couple of months to run Repair Disk on their SSD to trim that drive is their other option. I tested it and found it works.

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:21 am

mikehalloran wrote: Just don't reset the NV RAM (PRAM) without disabling TRIM ... but you know that already. Also, you have to re enable TRIM after every OS update ... again no problem.

Uh oh. I don't know about that. What happens? I'm worried I may have done that... but not sure. Everything seems to be okay.

HCMarkus · Post by **HCMarkus** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:15 am

James Steele wrote:
mikehalloran wrote: Just don't reset the NV RAM (PRAM) without disabling TRIM ... but you know that already. Also, you have to re enable TRIM after every OS update ... again no problem.
Uh oh. I don't know about that. What happens? I'm worried I may have done that... but not sure. Everything seems to be okay.

You'll know if you do it James.

Here's the poop: http://www.cindori.org/trim-enabler-and-yosemite/

mikehalloran · Post by **mikehalloran** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:38 am

James Steele wrote:
mikehalloran wrote: Just don't reset the NV RAM (PRAM) without disabling TRIM ... but you know that already. Also, you have to re enable TRIM after every OS update ... again no problem.
Uh oh. I don't know about that. What happens? I'm worried I may have done that... but not sure. Everything seems to be okay.

OS updates such as the recent to 10.10.1 disable TRIM (in non-Apple SSDs) because they rewrite that part of the System and remove that .kext file. In fact, if you didn't reset Trim Enabler after the 10.10.1 update, you'll find that TRIM is no longer working. Nothing happens to your system. Just fire up Trim Enabler, re-set and reboot. You will need to do this every OS update.

Follow the link that HCM posted on the other issue. You can go through the Terminal commands or Option-Boot into the restore partition and reinstall the latest version of the OS–this does the same thing as an OS update per my previous paragraph.

You just need to remember if, say... your FW or USB ports go down that, before you reset the NV RAM (the normal first step) you need to need to fire up Trim Enabler, turn TRIM off and reboot. Then reset the NV RAM.

Babz · Post by **Babz** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:41 pm

The prices at:

http://eshop.macsales.com/search/crucial

say "Area51 Saver."

Do you know what this means? Does it mean this is a temporary sale price?

It may be time for me to finally take the SSD plunge. Someday I may even have to learn what "TRIM" is all about.

Babz

mikehalloran · Post by **mikehalloran** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:14 pm

Babz wrote:The prices at:

http://eshop.macsales.com/search/crucial

say "Area51 Saver."

Do you know what this means? Does it mean this is a temporary sale price?

It may be time for me to finally take the SSD plunge. Someday I may even have to learn what "TRIM" is all about.

Babz

Actually, these prices are a few dollars higher than yesterday. Still pretty good.

MOTUnation.com