Orchestral Libraries Again

[ironchef_marc]

For brass and winds my vote goes to Cinesamples. Great sounding and excellent control as well as flexibility. I heard and tried their strings and I was disappointed.

Also Samplemodeling VI are amazing but all solo instruments.

For strings my vote goes to LASS. Spitfire also has some great sounding strings (Mural Strings). I heard good things about Cinematic Strings as well, they are a one patch with KS model which some people prefer.

The key thing with all the current library is to make sure you take advantage of all the expression capabilities of the instruments by using various CC linked to dynamics, vibrato etc.

[Shooshie]

The key thing with all the current library is to make sure you take advantage of all the expression capabilities of the instruments by using various CC linked to dynamics, vibrato etc.

This IS the key thing. And to get the most out of anything, you must have a number of expressive controllers that you can use while playing in the part. They break down into these basics:

• MIDI Breath Controller (Yamaha BC3 or equivalent, or Yamaha WX5, or EWI)
  MIDI Wheels or transducers for bending and effects (keyboard, WX5)
  MIDI Faders or Knobs (MIDI Keyboards often have banks of 8 switchable faders for a total of 16 or 32 virtual faders)
  MIDI Expression Pedals (Roland FC 300 or equivalent. Careful about polarity of analog pedals with MIDI converters)
  Keyswitches (keyboard or any note controller)
  Aftertouch - (keyboards, not always practical)
  Ribbon Controllers - (upscale keyboards, not always practical, can center at 0 or 64)

Since most sample libraries are still velocity-based, breath controllers must use Velocity Crossfade in conjunction with either Breath Control or Expression continuous MIDI controller data. Any instrument you attempt to control with expressive controllers instead of velocity will need to map into Velocity Crossfading, unless they have that built-in to their Expression Control (CC#11).

It's hard to create your own vibrato, though the Yamaha WX5 makes that possible the same way you make saxophone vibrato. However, most samples are not made for that, so you are better off using the vibrato controls they provide, which are usually speed and depth. If necessary, this can be recorded on a second pass using overdub, or using a scratch track and dragging the two controllers into the original track. Natural wind instrument vibrato is around 5 to 6 hertz, depending on the phrase, instrument, style, and circumstance. Violins can be faster, but many violinists use the same natural speed as wind players, especially in ensemble. The depth is the key; subtle vibrato is almost always more effective than wide vibrato. We tend to use it more as an expressive touch now, rather than a constant component of the sound as it was in the early-mid 20th century.

Sometimes it feels like you're playing a theater organ or something. Takes some getting used to, but well worth the effort. The bottom line is this: with skills using controllers, you can make almost any library produce an acceptable sound for a mockup. For actual recording purposes, you need one of the best libraries out there, PLUS those skills and hardware. Plus some ability to figure out and program interfaces and their sounds. It doesn't matter how you get there; the goal is instruments that sound natural, or in the case of techno-pop or other non-acoustic instruments, just controlling the parameters that make the music do what you want it to. Any way you want to do it is fine if it works.

Shooshie

[Killahurts]

The bottom line is this: with skills using controllers, you can make almost any library produce an acceptable sound for a mockup. For actual recording purposes, you need one of the best libraries out there, PLUS those skills and hardware. Plus some ability to figure out and program interfaces and their sounds.

Really well put! I have LASS and Miroslav for most ensemble strings, Cinebrass, Vienna and SAM for brass.. all of these have their special methods to finesse the realism you want out of them. I think that even knowing them all, is easier than knowing how to exercise the same control over a real ensemble. Nevertheless, you have to do the work to make the libraries sound like the music you want. If they sounded perfect out of the box, it would be because it's a one-trick-pony that just happened to do what you wanted at that moment. The high-end libraries are high-end because they are versatile and require experience.

[ironchef_marc]

The same applies for all synths (Omnisphere, Massive, Absythn, Zebra, Sylenth etc) as well.

Hence they are called virtual instruments! They are not patches, you need to learn to play them just like a regular instrument.

[dix]

NI Sting Ensemble anyone? http://www.native-instruments.com/en/pr ... -ensemble/

...just came out today I think so I doubt many have had a chance try it. I'm super happy with sound of Cinesamples, but the divisi functionality on this, and other libraries, is very compelling. Among the most time consuming things about using Cinesamples (etc, libraries without an auto-divisi feature) is avoiding, what's referred to as, sample-build up - the drill for me is to compose using a polyphonic patch and then reassign the parts to single note sample patches. Nothing gives away a mock as easily as when you can hear that it was programed by a guy playing a synth on a keyboard (which it is of course, but you know what i mean)!

I'm hoping Cinesamples offers auto-divisi in future versions. Seems like they may have to remain competitive.

[jlaudon]

I noticed that this new string library was developed together with Audiobro, so I wonder how similar it is to LASS. Will listen to the demos later today.

[dix]

Noticed the link above is bad. It's here: https://www.native-instruments.com/en/p ... -ensemble/

Still waiting for user reviews. Anyone?

[jloeb]

Here's a useful review (or rather, self-assessment) from Kerestes (audiobro) himself:

Here's the deal... we are very proud of our collaboration with NI and SESS (NI Strings), but it is not a replacement for LASS... more of a compliment and different flavor. It has a beautiful sound of its own. I personally believe you can never have too many good libraries. As all good mock-up artists know, certain phrases or passages may translate better on one library than another just by chance. Having multiple libraries gives you an expanded vocabulary to express your musical ideas.

SESS has a different sound from LASS, of course, and has real octave runs included . But honestly, the real reason to get it is it's sound and the fact that NI priced this at a no-brainer price point. Audiobro has no control over pricing... this is 100% NI's call. We did the library, they did the UI and marketing. For a 60 piece 2 part divisi string library... their pricing is already very very very reasonable.

What are the differences?

Off the top of my head, what SESS has that LASS doesn't have:
• 4 mics vs 1 mic
• Major and minor octave runs
• A different sound (out of the box a more lush sound I would say)

What LASS has that SESS doesn't have:
• 3 divisis (1/4,1/4,1/2) vs 2 (1/2, 1/2)
• First chair solo string instruments
• Glissando on all instruments (except basses)
• Legato Sordino
• Legato tremolo
• Legato trills
• programmable Auto Rhythm Tool
• A different sound (out of the box a more detailed sound I would say)
• Aleatoric Patches
• Our whole Sonic Profile technology to mimic other famous recordings
• Auto Arranger
• Marcato on all sections (not just basses)

A couple of things, LASS will be updated (like I mentioned above) and please see the list above to see the differences. NI does give a cross-grade price of $299 for anyone who owns ANY version of Komplete. Pricing and discounts are all handled by NI.

You can pick up on this thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3824#p25061


Cheers,

Andrew K

[wonder]

+1 for LASS (LA Scoring Strings)

[toodamnhip]

Here's a useful review (or rather, self-assessment) from Kerestes (audiobro) himself:

Here's the deal... we are very proud of our collaboration with NI and SESS (NI Strings), but it is not a replacement for LASS... more of a compliment and different flavor. It has a beautiful sound of its own. I personally believe you can never have too many good libraries. As all good mock-up artists know, certain phrases or passages may translate better on one library than another just by chance. Having multiple libraries gives you an expanded vocabulary to express your musical ideas.

SESS has a different sound from LASS, of course, and has real octave runs included . But honestly, the real reason to get it is it's sound and the fact that NI priced this at a no-brainer price point. Audiobro has no control over pricing... this is 100% NI's call. We did the library, they did the UI and marketing. For a 60 piece 2 part divisi string library... their pricing is already very very very reasonable.

What are the differences?

Off the top of my head, what SESS has that LASS doesn't have:
• 4 mics vs 1 mic
• Major and minor octave runs
• A different sound (out of the box a more lush sound I would say)

What LASS has that SESS doesn't have:
• 3 divisis (1/4,1/4,1/2) vs 2 (1/2, 1/2)
• First chair solo string instruments
• Glissando on all instruments (except basses)
• Legato Sordino
• Legato tremolo
• Legato trills
• programmable Auto Rhythm Tool
• A different sound (out of the box a more detailed sound I would say)
• Aleatoric Patches
• Our whole Sonic Profile technology to mimic other famous recordings
• Auto Arranger
• Marcato on all sections (not just basses)

A couple of things, LASS will be updated (like I mentioned above) and please see the list above to see the differences. NI does give a cross-grade price of $299 for anyone who owns ANY version of Komplete. Pricing and discounts are all handled by NI.

You can pick up on this thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3824#p25061


Cheers,

Andrew K

Excellent information, Thank you

I would buy it today but there’s always insane discounts around Black Fri so I will wait till the weekend to see wassup.
I have both LASS libraries already but they are complicated to use. And it’s harder to get a lush sound so this is a nice compliment to LASS.

[buzzsmith]

+1 on "complicated"!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[toodamnhip]

+1 on "complicated"!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I could envision using the new NI library first, and enjoying Andrew’s programming touches on behalf of NI. And, when I need MORE detail, or a darker, more present sounding, mixing in LASS.
But who knows right?
I still us a freebee as my “go to” cello. Pocketblakus.

[williemyers]

...Still waiting for user reviews. Anyone?

http://vi-control.net/community/threads ... st-3911489

((start around pg. 7 for responses from guys who've actually purchased & used this library))

[mikehalloran]

The key thing with all the current library is to make sure you take advantage of all the expression capabilities of the instruments by using various CC linked to dynamics, vibrato etc.

Being one-armed, my ability to use most MIDI controllers in real time is extremely limited. The orchestra VIs I have sound more like the Mighty Whurlitzer than anything I can bring to the table. The time does not exist for me to tweak every note and every performance after I play in the notes. Perhaps if I was retired but that's not happening for a few years...

Anyway, it got me thinking. Does anyone remember the Yamaha combo organs of the 1970s? They introduced a keyboard that could do finger vibrato. It didn't work all that well — you needed a heavy finger to make it work and it was limited but it was functional. Something like that today combined with a volume pedal could make my performances more realistic — not the way that a bowed string or wind controller could but better than its been for me.

Searching the 'net for a MIDI keyboard with finger vibrato brought me to TouchKeys. Looks like I missed the last production run but this may just be what I need. It appears that you can buy it integrated with a controller or you can add it to your own. It can also do glissandi and be programmed for other effects (variable attaca, I would hope).
http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~andrewm/tou ... ction.html

I'd love to find one and try it on the Sailors' Dance from "The Red Poppy". If I could make the bass soli sound the way I know how to play it, then I could make such a tool do anything I want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJgZ-GiPlvM

[dix]

...Still waiting for user reviews. Anyone?

http://vi-control.net/community/threads ... st-3911489

((start around pg. 7 for responses from guys who've actually purchased & used this library))

Cool! Thanks for this. A lot of good info here.

http://vi-control.net/community/threads ... 517/page-7